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Date:         Wed, 2 Nov 2011 12:07:58 -0700
Reply-To:     Steven Johnson <sjohnso2000@GMAIL.COM>
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From:         Steven Johnson <sjohnso2000@GMAIL.COM>
Subject:      Re: No start/ Yes spark II
In-Reply-To:  <0b3801cc9849$25eb6480$6401a8c0@PROSPERITY>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Somebody posted a while back a little wired up jig that bipassed the fuel pump relay (I think) and ruled out running issues from that circuit onward. The name of the jig or the person posting excapes me but I know it's in the archives. I'd repost but I'm not on my home pc....

Steven 91 Westy

On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 8:48 PM, Scott Daniel - Turbovans < scottdaniel@turbovans.com> wrote:

> a NOID light is the small simple tool, used to check if the ecu is firing > the injectors. > Just plug it on an injector plug .. > with key on, crank engine with your remote starter switch .. > and if it flashes regularly with cranking.. > the ecu is firing , at least, that injector. > > in seconds you know if the ecu is firing the injectors. > the tool is so small, and not expensive that it's a mandatory item to have, > in my world anyway. > > http://www.noidlight.com/how-**to-use-a-noid-light/<http://www.noidlight.com/how-to-use-a-noid-light/> > > Premium fuel is not recommended .. > by me at least. > Use mid-grade if you think you need more octane for some reason ( which you > don't ). > I run all my cars on unleaded regular. > I use fuel treatment additives now and then. > Premium is not 'better'. Seriously. > > the ecu should apply ground to energize the fuel pump relay under two > circumstances.. > when you turn the key to 'on' ( not 'start' ) it should run a few seconds > and shut off. > > if it does not .. > either... > ecu is not supplying ground. > Main relay is not powering up the ecu, > fuel pump relay is not working ( I've never seen one fail...........those > two relays, main and fuel pump .. > are the longest lasting relays on the planet in my experience. > > > don't be tricked by it being flooded. > a fuel injection engine with an air flow Meter is harder to unflood than a > carb car .. > since even while cranking with throttle wide open .. > not much air is getting past the pretty closed flapper in the AFM. > > NOID light is super useful. > the most common no-start I see is ignition not working. > Next might be fuel ......either pump itself, clogged fuel filter or fuel > tank ...or electrical control of the fuel pump circuit. > Last is the ecu not firing the injectors. Most of the time the ecu is > firing the injectors, but Noid light is the fast easy way to tell. > > Scott > www.turbovans.com > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Skip" <skiplaubach@COMCAST.NET> > To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM> > Sent: Monday, October 31, 2011 7:45 PM > Subject: No start/ Yes spark II > > > The 84 Westy 1.9L is still not starting...any ideas? >> >> Further to my comments below, I tested several of the parameters listed in >> Bentley 24.20 - 24.21, disconnecting the connector to the ECU and using a >> multimeter: >> >> The one test that did not check out is the test for "Ground >> connection/control unit", 7 and 25 pins (should be 0 ohms). I tested >> 22.5 ohms. This, I suspect/perhaps, corroborates the fact that I'm not >> getting voltage at 87 pin on the fuel pump relay when I turn on the >> ignition switch. >> >> I also looked at the ignition coil voltage to FP relay. I am getting >> voltage at the black wire on the ignition coil and I am getting voltage at >> 85 pin, which means a signal is being sent to the ECU? >> >> I also checked the ground connections. All are grounded. >> >> Therefore, since 1) I'm getting spark at the plug wire, 2) the FP works >> when I jump the FP relay, and 3) the stuff above, that for some reason, >> the injectors are not getting the correct signal to spray fuel. Is there >> an electrical test for this? Is this pointing to the ECU not giving the >> correct signal back to the 87 pin on the FP relay? I've ruled out the >> hall sensor since I'm getting spark. >> >> Would anyone care to offer corrections/suggestions to my logic and/or >> offer suggestions for replacement items? Is it an electrical connection >> issue or a device issue? >> >> Again, when turning on the ignition switch (key to acc), the FP does not >> activate. When jumping the FP relay, the FP runs but the van will still >> not start. This is where I think the fuel injectors are not spraying >> fuel. If so, then why/what is not happening in the electrical signals >> that is resulting in the fuel injectors not spraying fuel? I have 2/5's >> tank of fuel (premium). >> >> Thanks for giving it a shot. >> >> Skip Laubach >> Elgin, IL >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Skip <skiplaubach@COMCAST.NET> >> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM >> Sent: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 22:58:56 -0000 (UTC) >> Subject: Re: vanagon Digest - 30 Oct 2011 - Unfinished >> >> '84 Westy 1.9L Wasserboxer >> >> Brief update. More ideas, please. >> >> Thanks Evan for your ideas. I dashed out to the shop, "did the timing >> trick" by plugging the idle stabilizer into itself and turned the key. >> Turns over, no start. >> >> Then, I went back to the engine (Scott, I need a remote starter!) and >> jumped the FP relay to get the FP pumping. Jumped back into the seat and >> turned the key. Turns over, no start. >> >> Unlike TJ (I think that we have separate root causes), I still suspect >> maybe the Hall Sender in the distributor or maybe the ECU. I have neither >> but will order from our fine suppliers if that is the recommendation of >> the group. >> >> Thank you for your thoughts. >> >> Skip >> >> Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 19:58:02 +0000 >> From: Skip >> Subject: No start/no spark II >> >> First time poster (apologies in advance if I don't do this >> correctly)/three month subscriber, and three month owner of a: >> >> '84 1.9L Westy >> >> Coincidentally, TJ's issue/questions are very similar to mine. No start, >> but I did observe a spark from the only spark plug wire that I pulled and >> tested. Not to hi-jack the post, so I put a "II" in the subject line... >> >> Symptom: No FP-on at turn of the key. Oh yea...and no start... >> Brief history: I was driving 60 mph down the road (Illinois - Hwy 47, >> just north of the wind farm, five miles south of Dwight, IL) and suddenly >> the engine stopped (very suddenly and without warning). Fortunately I was >> able to coast to a county road cross road, pulling off the highway onto a >> little used gravel road. More fortunately, SO was in the car behind me >> (longer story), so she pulled over as well (I was a bit surprised at this, >> as well...). Most fortunately I received my AAA "premium" three weeks >> prior, so was able to have the Westy towed direct to my house (70 miles) >> where it now is in the garage/shop. It's been a week. >> >> So far: >> 1. Immediately (before my study of Bentley, etc.) I replaced the FP (now >> Pierburg), wired a new ground at FP, and replaced both relays. Since >> getting the Westy, I have replaced the plugs, wires, cap and rotor >> (preventative mtc.) >> 2. So, a new fuel pump and relays did not change things. >> 3. After study in Bentley, Haynes, Vanagonparts.com technical section, >> and a brief discussion with one of our fine suppliers in south Jersey, >> I've discovered the following: >> a. Bentley, 24.32, All voltage and ohms tested OK except terminal 87 (on >> FP relay). No voltage at start up. My understanding is that this is the >> terminal that sends voltage to the FP (via communication from ECU?). >> Remember, new relays, and I've also moved the relays around, so unless I >> have four bad relays (two new and two existing) I don't think it's a >> simple as "bad relay". >> b. Jumped 30 & 87 on the FP relay: the FP ran when I jumped these >> terminals. I could hear the FP and the fuel running through the FI >> system. I then jumped in the driver's seat and turned the key to start >> the engine. It did not start (which now makes me suspect more than one >> root cause...maybe). >> c. Then, I checked for spark on one plug wire. I have spark. This makes >> me wonder why the van didn't start when I jumped the relay? >> d Checked for continuity between terminal 85 (on FP relay) and terminal 3 >> on ECU connector. Continuity OK. >> >> So, should I replace the ECU (based on "d", "a", and "b" above)? Could >> the Hall Effect Sender on the distributor be getting in the way of >> preventing terminal 87 from sending voltage to the FP? (I do have good >> voltage at the Hall Effect Sender connecter at the distributor, by the >> way). Should I run the test for the Hall Sender as described below? >> Perhaps I'm not getting "enough spark" to start the van when I have the FP >> relay jumped? >> >> It's been a steep learning curve for me (enjoy it very much), but I've hit >> a very flat plateau. Thanks for your suggestions. Great site with some >> great minds. >> >> Skip Laubach >> 84 Westy 1.9L >> Elgin, Illinois >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 13:42:35 -0700 >> From: Evan Mac Donald >> Subject: Re: No start/no spark II >> >> This failure I may be able to help with. Older, pre 2.1 vans I got, and >> hav= >> e had =0Afor 15 years.=0A=0ACounter-intuitive, and seemily non-connected. >> B= >> ut, try a different idle sensor =0Abox. It is the small electronic box on >> t= >> he engine bay=A0sidewall, right next to =0Athe ingition unit. Might be >> gree= >> n, might be light brown.=0A=0AMy '85 just stopped. Two weeks before, my >> son= >> had been driving it, and it would =0Anot start for him at his >> destination.= >> Dad went to the van, trouble shot, and =0Aended up with a replacment >> distr= >> ubutor. At the second no-go, I thought "Again?", =0Abut I had everything - >> = >> fuel, and spark. I could not imagine the cause of =0Ano-start, if I had >> fue= >> l and spark. Worked for three days on it. Finally, in =0Adesparation, as >> mu= >> ch as anything else, I replaced the idle stabilizer. It was =0Athe last >> thi= >> ng I could think of that had anything to say about how the van ran. >> =0AWith= >> the swapped out unit, the van fired right up. Ran it around for a >> =0Ahalf-= >> hour. Just fine. Put the old stabilizer back in. Dead.=0A=0ASo, if you >> have= >> a spare unit, try it. If you don't, just do the timing trick, =0Aand plug >> = >> the two leads together, and see if you get runnage. Worth a try.=0A=0AEvan >> = >> Mac Donald =0A=0A=0A"...in the absence of facts, myth rushes in, the kudzu >> = >> of history."=0A-Stacy Schiff >> =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A_______________**________________= >> _ >> >


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