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Date:         Fri, 24 Feb 2012 14:06:44 -0800
Reply-To:     Scott Daniel - Turbovans <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From:         Scott Daniel - Turbovans <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Preemptive water pump replacement?  Miscellaneous Chatter
Comments: To: mcneely4@COX.NET
In-Reply-To:  <20120224122519.6D3EO.662205.imail@eastrmwml301>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed

my thoughts.. sure, if using thick oil, such as 20W50 in very, very cold temps some of the symptoms mentioned could occur .. and I assume have occurred. However.. having lived in Minot North Dakota where it is easily below zero for days on end .....day and night ..never above say 12 below for two weeks. I'm sure people there don't run 20W50 in their cars there. and ..in 5 decades of driving everywhere from Colorado to North Dakota in winter.. I have never heard of any of these symptoms happening...

I have seen oil push past a spin-on oil filter gasket ..but that was with a shimmed oil pressure relief valve spring ..which I promptly corrected. My point is .........being concerned that the oil pressure relief system is inadequate to relieve enough pressure .. I really don't think vanogon people need to worry about that much. unless.. it's a brand new tight engine, they are running 20W50 and it's 10 below zero and they like to hit 4,000 rpm within a minute or two of firing up the engine.

Otherwise, for 'normal conditions and used vanagon engines ' .. it's not that big a concern. and of course.. *always* drive gently the first few minutes..

what I do is .. start as gently as possible.. if the van happens to need the engine revved once to get the charge waring light to go out .. I wait half a minute or so to gently rev it. Then I drive off gently ..taking it easy for the first few minutes.

Generally . 'sitting around' at idle to 'warm it up' is bad practice. A minute or two max, if that.

and an oil pressure gauge is nice to have. for when miles are high .. oil clearances are larger than they once were .. if it's idling at say only 5 psi hot .. or say only generating 18 psi at 60 mph ...it's good to know that.

also fwiw .. for engines that are driven regularly .. especially engines designed back in the day ..the 80's say ....or earlier. especially for engines with miles and wear on them .. I have never thought that having an oil with a very low first number ..say 5W30 is that important.. unless it's extremely cold. I do however believe very much in using an zinc addtive in flat tappet engines, which ours are, and for which modern API oils with fewer zinc anti-friction additives included, are not designed for. Most modern engines have gone to roller cam followers to go with the modern oil with fewer zinc additives.

'how' something is operated has a LOT to do with how well it lasts.

Whenever things are presented as being at the extreme end of the scale.. take Y2K for example.. or the comet Kahotec ( sp ? ) .. both were taughted as ...'the end of the world in the case of Y2K ..) and the best thing that's ever been seen in the sky in a thousand years..

both ........were nowhere near those extremes. I knew the year 2000 would come with barely any issues.. and that comet .. sure it was nice..it looked like a small flashlight in the night sky .. it wasn't huge ..it didn't fill a huge portion of the sky etc. so .. when dire warnings are given .. just be reasonable. Seriously ...( I do consider the east coast a 'whole other world' for sure ...) .. in all my experience with cars and engines.. I have never seen one oil seal pop out due to a oil pressure relief valve system not being able to relieve pressure adequately .. I'm just saying .. let's keep an eye on the real reasonable world. Those things are possible.. but ...at least where I've been .........basically unheard of. If their OP relieve pistons stick in New York ....or the system is not adequate to relieve enough pressure.... must be unique to that area, cause it's not in the normal car world in my experience at all.

Just to keep things within the 'reasonable-normal' range.

.

On 2/24/2012 9:25 AM, Dave Mcneely wrote: > Dennis, this is pretty interesting. > > here in the lower great plains, ordinary winter temperatures run from teens to thirties F mornings. A cold spell usually means single digits, and it may stay below 20 even in daytime for a few days, but it can drop below zero. Last winter our lowest was -16 F here where I live, and down to -32 in the NE part of the state. > > I have not heard of the kinds of things you describe occurring. I have been in communication with mechanics about the matter. Most of them seem to think that what one could expect would be the usual consequences of inadequate lubrication, and that for most cars, even in the coldest weather, one should not "warm up" the car. Of course, no one here has block heaters like they do in the far north. > > I'm not disputing your explanation, I'm just relating what others told me. I am very appreciative of your informing us as to these matters. > > For me personally, I think it is mostly moot. I generally leave my camper parked during such weather (but on rare occasion, I have driven it, for example in the aftermath of the Christmas blizzard of 2009 I drove back from Texas when temperatures were down to zero). I garage my Prius and Honda, and even when the ambient temperature is around zero, it stays in the upper thirties or even into the forties in my garage. Of course, I do have to occasionally park in a lot somewhere when it is cold, and leave the car all day or even overnight. Am I at risk on starteup? Of course, those vehicles are very different from the camper, but basic mechanics is basic mechanics. They also use much lower viscosity oil, 5W30. > > Oh, this winter the temperature has dropped below 20 F on only a handful of occasions, and many mornings it has been in the thirties. The highs this week have run into the seventies. Seems like I am living back in Dallas again. Yesterday a neighbor asked if I thought it was spring. I said "No, spring comes after winter, and we haven't had that yet." > > Thanks Dennis, for all your knowledge and explanation. > > mcneely > ---- Dennis Haynes<d23haynes57@HOTMAIL.COM> wrote: >> The 20w-50 is the preferred oil viscosity for most climates. It is good down >> to about 20F as long as you are somewhat careful to avoid revving the engine >> over 2,000 rpm for the first minute or two after start up. The oil pressure >> relief valve only has "so much" capacity to handle the excess pressure when >> the oil can't flow through the bearings. So of the nasty's that can happen >> from excess oil pressure include damaged or blown out oil filters, (86 and >> later the oil cooler), broken oil pump shaft (the drive tab), crank seals >> pushed out of the case and my favorite is having bearing hydraulically lock >> to the crank and spin with it. I've seen main bearings turned so hard the >> pin hole was lengthened by 3/8 inch. These problems are not unique to the >> Vanagon. When we get cold snaps here on Long Island all sorts of failures >> occur to many vehicles. Cam seals getting pushed out is common on many >> vehicles. Then the unknowing driver ignores that oil pressure warning light >> until the engine makes noise or stops. My point is that the proper oil for >> real cold weather use should not be taken lightly. Proper startup and >> warming procedures need to be used. >> >> Dennis >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On Behalf Of >> Dake Collins >> Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2012 8:53 AM >> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM >> Subject: Re: Preemptive water pump replacement? Miscellaneous Chatter >> >> Tom, >> I am not, by any definition, an expert on these things - I rely on other >> for such things. I use 20-50 oil and it has worked for me in coastal& >> downeast Maine for the 7+ years I've owned my '84 Westy. I use it because >> it's what was recommended to me by a friend who I consider to be >> knowledgeable about such things. >> I hope this helps& if anyone has a suggestion as to why I shouldn't use >> 20-50 - please let me know. >> Dake >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> From: Dave Mcneely<mcneely4@COX.NET> >> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM >> Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 12:20 PM >> Subject: Re: Preemptive water pump replacement? Miscellaneous Chatter >> >> Dake, maybe you could clue Tom in on the oil you use and why. >> >> ---- Dake Collins<wuwe423@YAHOO.COM> wrote: >> Hi Tom, >> Welcome to Maine, I'm looking forward to having another list member in the >> area& closer than Houlton. I park my '84 Westy in Liberty, just outside of >> Belfast and home of Liberty Tool Co. (a must see in Maine). I get to Blue >> Hill frequently. I attend some of the campouts (just got back from Dead of >> Winter in Georgia) but mostly I explore on my own - if you're unfamiliar >> with Maine I'd be glad to show you some of the sights. >> Give me a shout when you get your wheels under you in Blue Hill. >> Welcome to Maine, >> Dake >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> >> >> I am finally getting ready to leave Salt lake City for Blue Hill, Maine,& >> am wondering whether I should put the new Heppu water pump I have in my >> parts stash in now instead of on the road in some god forsaken place on the >> way? My present water pump appears to be doing fine, but has about 87.5k on >> it after I had it replaced while on a road trip, 8 years ago. >> >> >> I am looking forward to attending some of the East coast campouts this >> Spring/Summer/Fall/Winter, so hide your good looking wimin,& bring out the >> syncro dokas as I am interested. >> >> YMMV, >> >> Mr. BZ-what's a guy from Hawaii doing moving to Maine? (Besides Mike in >> Houlton Maine)? Answer: Grandkids! >> >> -- >> David McNeely > -- > David McNeely >


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