Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 10:10:24 -0600
Reply-To: OlRivrRat <OlRivrRat@COMCAST.NET>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: OlRivrRat <OlRivrRat@COMCAST.NET>
Subject: Re: Catalytic Converter???? Anyone go without it???
In-Reply-To: <BAY152-ds10598F63E380C690D158EDA0400@phx.gbl>
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Dennis
Thanks for that info ~ I was actually suspecting that something like
that
might be the case. I had just pulled out my report from the
ABQSmogTester to
see what the numbers might be indicating & had noticed that there are
not any
results for NOx. It does say " Catalytic Converter - passed" but as
you pointed
out it is a "no load" test so not necessarily the whole truth. I am
running dual
O2Sensors ~ 1 up' & 1 downstream ~ and the ECU is not complaining
about the
work that the Cat' is doing but again I suspect that may not be the
whole truth
& probably not good enough to make everybody happy.
Does anyone know if there are any places around NM that require the
Dyno
SmogTest? If I ever I get to someplace that does I might just get the
test done
as long as it is not outrageously priced.
ORR ~ DeanB
On 20 Mar , 2012, at 6:19 PM, Dennis Haynes wrote:
> I looked up the information on the Albuquerque NM emissions test
> program.
> They are only looking for visible smoke, carbon monoxide and unburned
> hydrocarbons. The emissions are checked at high and low speed but
> not under
> actual load. CO is mixture related and a properly working O2 sensor
> system
> will keep that near .5% before the Catalyst. Unburned HC would only
> exist if
> you have a miss fire, valve, or other engine problem. Again should
> be well
> under 50 ppm even before the cat. So your nonpolluting test results
> do not
> confirm your cat is actually working. You would need to check before
> and
> after the cat to see if you are getting any reduction. Now where we
> need to
> get the cats to really work is under load, changing loads where the
> engine
> management can't always provide perfect mixture. Also, a major job
> of the 3
> way catalyst is to reduce the oxides of nitrogen, (NOx). NOx is
> produced
> mostly at the pressure temperature peak of the combustion cycle and
> mostly
> happens under load. The higher the load, pressure, peak flame
> temperature
> the more NOx produced. In order to test this part of the catalyst or
> other
> factors (ignition timing, EGR).that affect or control this the test
> has to
> be done with the engine loaded. This is why many emissions programs
> required the dynamometer testing, (IM240). This is where the cheap
> cats
> fail.
> Since we had this test in NY until recently factors that often
> caused test
> failures were bad cats, oversized tires, especially on automatics,
> over
> advanced ignition timing, and on the air cooled engines the missing
> EGR
> systems.
>
> BTW the EPA requires replacement Cats to be warrantied for 5 years
> or 50K
> also. Keep the paperwork. The real issue will be to prove the
> failure was
> not caused by something else.
>
> Dennis
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On
> Behalf Of
> OlRivrRat
> Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2012 10:57 AM
> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
> Subject: Re: Catalytic Converter???? Anyone go without it???
>
> Jeff
>
> I'm very proud of you that you have an important job to do &
> are
> trying to do it well, but again ~ according to a recent Albuquerque,
> NM smog
> test (which, by the way, I had done voluntarily as I'm not required
> to have
> one in the county where I live) & my EJ25s ECU ~ My VDUBARUs EJ25 &
> its
> attached ExhaustSystem are not polluting.
> Having said that ~ being the InfoHaulic that I am ~ I would
> like to
> be informed about what pollutants my cars might be spewing into the
> environment that the ABQ SmogGuys don't seem to care about so any
> wisdom
> that you might have & would care to share in that regard would be
> appreciated.
>
> ORR ~ DeanB
>
> On 20 Mar , 2012, at 1:13 AM, Jeff wrote:
>
>> Well. sit right back and I'll tell you a little story. Perhaps my
>> "ABSURD" feeling, as you like to call it, comes from a little bit
>> (perhaps a lot) more experience than yours? I happen to be a
>> Registered Importer and part of my job is to make imported vehicles
>> legal for the USA. Your "$100 Cat" will not pass any of the EPA lab
>> tests even when new. The $200 cats will not pass the EPA lab tests
>> when new. Only the OE $500 cat will pass the EPA lab test. The most
>> glaring failure of the "non-ABSURD" cats is that they do not come up
>> to operating temperature quickly enough to be effective for short
>> drives. Other problems have to do with comparison testing and how
>> quickly they lose their effectiveness.
>>
>> Now let's just forget about the whole fancy EPA lab testing stuff and
>> concentrate on everyday experience with plenty of customer's cars
>> here
>> in California. I can't keep track of the number of 2 year old "$100
>> Cats" that failed their 2nd smog test. It sort of became a running
>> joke in CA Vanagon land about replacing your cat every two years to
>> pass smog. Lots of people bitched and moaned when CA put in their
>> new
>> cat replacement laws a few years back, but it sure got rid of the 2
>> year cat syndrome.
>>
>> So. I'm sorry if the facts seems "ABSURD" to you, but in reality, you
>> do get what you pay for when it comes to a catalytic converter.
>>
>> Happy smogging.
>>
>> Jeff
>>
>>
>> From: OlRivrRat [mailto:OlRivrRat@comcast.net]
>> Sent: Monday, March 19, 2012 7:56 PM
>> To: Jeff Schwaia
>> Subject: Re: Catalytic Converter???? Anyone go without it???
>>
>> Jeff
>>
>> My "$100 Cat" (which actually only cost me $87.95 back in
>> '07) is 5yrs old & has 62000mis on it
>>
>> ( 2yrs8mos/26Kmis+H2OBxr & 2yrs4mos/36Kmis+EJ25 ) & according to a
>> recent smog test & my EJ25
>>
>> ECU, it is doing a darn fine job. So it would seem to me that an
>> "ABSURD" might be in order in regards
>>
>> to feelings about your need to spend $500 on a OE Cat. Here again is
>> the link to the one I use & highly
>>
>> recommend.
>>
>> http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MPE-22918/
>>
>>
>
>> ORR ~ DeanB
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 19 Mar , 2012, at 7:14 PM, Jeff Schwaia wrote:
>>
>>
>> A $100 cat is effective for less than 2 years and is nowhere near as
>> efficient as an OE cat.
>>
>> If you really want to do it right, buy a cat that meets OE specs...
>> about
>> $500.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Jeff
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On
>> Behalf Of den jolliffe
>> Sent: Monday, March 19, 2012 5:46 PM
>> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
>> Subject: Re: Catalytic Converter???? Anyone go without it???
>>
>> Aren't we talking about a $100 part that helps emissions and the air
>> we all breath. Say it lasts as long as the original or less (20
>> years)...that's $5 a year...less than a pack of smokes or a gallon of
>> gas A YEAR.
>>
>> It's a no brainer for me...NAPA has them.
>>
>> Dennis2
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: Dave Mcneely <mcneely4@COX.NET>
>> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
>> Sent: Monday, March 19, 2012 6:38:50 PM
>> Subject: Re: Catalytic Converter???? Anyone go without it???
>>
>> David, that is true. Some folks try to do something about, others
>> rail that it is too much to bear to clean up the act.
>>
>>
>> It is true that transportation is the single largest polluter,
>> however, and the only way to control that is to make sure that each
>> vehicle complies with standard.
>>
>>
>> We all pay, but then we all should.
>>
>> mcneely
>>
>> ---- David M <covrambles@YAHOO.COM> wrote:
>> Meanwhile US industry pumps out millions of tons of pollutants every
>> year while us poor suckers pay over $1000 to get thru the emissions
>> test (happened to me twice).
>>
>> If you look at the statistics you will be shocked at what goes into
>> the air every year.
>>
>>
>> -David, 1987 Wolfsburg
>>
>> --- On Sun, 3/18/12, Dennis Haynes <d23haynes57@HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
>>
>>
>> From: Dennis Haynes <d23haynes57@HOTMAIL.COM>
>> Subject: Re: Catalytic Converter???? Anyone go without it???
>> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
>> Date: Sunday, March 18, 2012, 6:14 PM
>>
>>
>> Luckily for many the federal government relies on the states for
>> enforcement. However the general requirements start at the federal
>> level (EPA),especially for the design, maintenance, and operation of
>> motor vehicles. Disabling or removing parts of the emission control
>> system are federal violations. Engine upgrades are also regulated
>> with
>> the major requirements being that the replacement be same year or
>> later and all of the emissions equipment that goes with that engine
>> goes with it. This can include all the controls, exhaust after
>> treatment, and fuel tank vapor recovery systems and maybe even the
>> transmission/drivelien. All the state emissions programs require that
>> all the original equipment is there. Keep in mind that depending on
>> use, (load, time under load, accelerating curves, etc.), a more
>> efficient engine may not mean a cleaner engine. Some states actually
>> operate these programs as private shops can both look the other way
>> or
>> take advantage and abuse customers. As for just relying on tailpipe
>> tests, they are just too limited in scope and function. They can only
>> look at percentages or parts per million (ppm), not actual pollutants
>> per mile especially under different conditions. Again they are
>> designed to identify "gross" polluters, not certify your vehicle
>> works
>> perfectly.
>>
>>
>> Dennis
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On
>> Behalf Of Scott Daniel - Turbovans
>> Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2012 3:27 PM
>> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
>> Subject: Re: Catalytic Converter???? Anyone go without it???
>>
>> what does that mean 'move issue up to the Fed level ' ?
>> there are no Fed smog stations.
>> I'm sure there is conflict between state's rights to set there own
>> emissions requirements and what the Feds want.
>>
>> I think it's interesting that where smog is not an issue locally ..
>> say where ocean air blows emissions inland ..
>> ( not talking about Ca. )
>> there can be no local smog checks at all, yet the cars are still
>> emitting, it's just blowing somewhere else.
>>
>> fortunately for many of us smogs checks are not required.
>> I would be in favor of basic tail pipe checks..
>>
>> and an example of how silly the whole thing is ..
>> in Ca ...
>> officially, they will not allow people to put newer more fuel
>> efficient, less polluting engines into their older vans.
>> Pretty stupid.
>> They could/should PAY people for putting in a late model less
>> polluting and more fuel efficient engine into our old beaties.
>> But then anyway ...'logical/practical' and 'government' have never
>> been known to coincide. Durn shame.
>>
>>
>> On 3/18/2012 9:36 AM, Dennis Haynes wrote:
>> It will run just fine with the guts removed. There may be a very
>> slight performance penalty as the gasses bounce around in the hollow
>> cat. Not having a local emissions testing/enforcement program just
>> moves the issue up to the federal level.
>>
>> Dennis
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On
>> Behalf Of marc rose
>> Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2012 11:54 AM
>> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
>> Subject: Catalytic Converter???? Anyone go without it???
>>
>> I went to change out my worn out and rusted muffler on my 90 Carat
>> "Rosie"
>>
>> yesterday and noticed that the converter was all busted up and the
>> ceramic is all but gone. I live in an area that has no enforced
>> emission tests or anything like that. My question is can i can safely
>> run without the convertor. I was going to just bust out the rest of
>> the ceramic and reinstall but was not sure how it would affect the
>> overall operation of the engine.
>>
>> Any thoughts??
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Marc
>>
>>
>> --
>> David McNeely
>>
>>
>>
>>
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