Date: Wed, 2 May 2012 02:48:39 -0400
Reply-To: Derek Drew <derekdrew@DEREKMAIL.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Derek Drew <derekdrew@DEREKMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Another Monster Battery Option For Stock Locations
In-Reply-To: <vanagon%2012050122470591@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Group 27 is a great size to go under the driver's seat. That's the
size I always used in the past. The only thing is that according to
my tests, the Odyssey AGM batteries really are better than regular
batteries, and the Sears licensed Odysseys may just be the best
batteries in the world of their type. My tests were heavy load tests
using load testers and were later coorborated by other tests I found
on the Internet. The NC-27 size is normally available in a
configuration that fits well under the front driver's seat best if it
is a normal vented lead acid battery. But I found that this yields
too much problems with battery acid coming out of the NC-27 vents, at
least with the lead acid version. The AGM version of the NC-27 is
less desirable because it sticks up a little higher in the key area
where it might hit the driver's seat swivel so I avoided that. If the
NC-27 AGM Odyssey has the same amount of amp hours and reserve
capacity as the PM-1 battery I used, in an AGM version, then I
wouldn't be surprised if the NC-27 would be an easier fit and
preferable to the PM-1 battery I used. But that's a lot of ifs. I
might have got stuck because I did not find a quality AGM version of
the NC-27 in a deep cycle design. I did not want a lead acid
traditional venting version of the NC-27. The PM-1 Sears battery is
indeed longer than will fit by dropping the battery into the Vanagon
driver's side stock battery tray. In order to drop it in there, you
must remove some metal from the area to the right (passenger's side)
of the battery tray under the driver's seat. I found that I could
remove enough metal, but leave plenty enough there, to fit the PM-1
battery without having to do any welding so this is a metal cutting
operation only. I then reinforced the area with bent metal bolted
back in, though I doubt the reinforcement was really needed. In order
to fit the PM-1, you have to approach the problem by saying that you
will widen the battery tray on the passenger side of the tray and
have a demonically inspired destructive intent as you hold a sawzall
or other cutting tool. After you have widened the battery tray, you
will discover that it was a relatively trivial operation, and "major"
only in terms of the mental gymnastics required to realize that it is
possible. The PM-1 battery lists for the same cost as the Lifeline
group 27 batteries that you bought. If the Lifeline NC-27 batteries
have the same specs in reserve capacity and amp hours as the Sears
PM-1 battery, then I recommend the NC-27 batteries (in an AGM deep
cycle version) instead of the PM-1 battery I got. If the PM-1 has
better specs in amp hours and reserve capcity, then I'd do the PM-1
again. After checking about 10 times in a detailed manner, I
determined that AGM batteries do not need to be in a sealed box, and
in fact, are safer without one, especially if you are tuning your
charge regulator from the automotive alternator to have the
recommended charge voltages as Odyssey recommends for their AGMs. I
did not use a sledge hammer. The PM-1 battery protrudes upwards, as
does an NC-27 battery, higher than a group 41 battery. But because no
special battery box is needed, and rugs with covering wood or metal
structuring of the lid may be configured to hide the battery
entirely, I felt that on the driver's side the horror of having a
battery stick up is mostly psychological before the job is done,
because after the job is done you cannot tell, and the westfalia seat
swivel can still be made to function as normal by trimming of the
metal along the rear edge and/or right rear corner as neccessary in
order to allow the swivel to function as normally. I cannot think of
any better use of the space behind the driver's seat than to have a
battery protrude up there (and then be cosmetically covered) so long
as the seat swivel can still function to 90 degrees, so i am a big
fan of using either of these two batteries at that location. The one
thing you would NOT want to do is to put either of these AGM
batteries into a sealed box at that location..... they do have *some*
venting even if it is minimal. Instead, just mount them to have air
ventiliation, and then make sure that the voltage regulator is doing
what it is supposed to do. In this case, there will not be sufficient
hydrogen buildup inside the vehcile to be material to humans and
their stuff, yet the small amount of hydrogen buildup that does
occurr will have someplace to go rather than be trapped in a sealed
box where it could turn malevalent. I advocate the use of AGM
batteries for Westfalia, so custom tuning of any 3-stage regulator to
AGM charging specs would be what the doctor orders unless the 3-stage
charger is already set for Odyssey AGM specs. I did not immediately
see which charger at
<http://www.powerstream.com/lead-acid-charger-Catalog.htm>http://www.powerstream.com/lead-acid-charger-Catalog.htm
was the candidate one for Vanagon/Westfalia use. The idea of a
3-stage charger which would take a 12V input and then output 12 volts
3-stage certainly sounds elegant and interesting so I'd like to see
which unit does that. But still, the most efficient method would be
to have the voltage regulator do the 3 stage charging at the vehicle
alternator rather than have a secondary voltage transformation
operation being undertaken. As I said earlier, with respect to
battery fitting, what seems like "major mods" before you fit a
battery may not seem like "major mods" after the job is done. I don't
feel like my method involved major mods now. Among the keys to the
operation was grinding all areas to bare metal, and then the use of
Eastwood's best and most advanced Extreme Chassis Black chassis
primer and paint. I used the very best of the Eastwood's topcoat
paint (comes in a paint can and says Epoxy or something similar)
rather than the rattle can Extreme Chassis Black spray paint that is
listed as almost as good, and I was very pleased with the results and
would do that paint again. If your NC-27s have 100 amp hours, Karl,
then just check the other specs such as reserve capacity to make sure
that these other specs measure up to the PM-1. If they do, then
proceed with your NC-27s. If they don't, then you can upgrade yet
again if you like to the PM-1. In the discussion above, I used the
phrase "NC-27" to mean "group 27." I actually have no idea what the
difference between the two phrases may indicate.
At 10:37 PM 5/1/2012, you wrote:
>Derek, a couple questions and thoughts:
>
>This battery is listed as 13" long. Vanagon battery boxes are 12" long. If
>it fits with no use of a sledge hammer on the sheetmetal, then Sears has
>miss-stated the size number - it would be a group 27. 'Fits' would mean in
>would be totally enclosed in the factory box and not protrude. It appears
>that it would protrude 2.5", as it is listed at 9.5" tall.
>
>I have a pair of Lifeline group 27 deep cycle batteries ready to install in
>my 'big trip' rig - one of the industry's leading brands, cost was $270 each
>(local distributor) and are 100 a/h. These measure in at 9.25", but can get
>away with 9" if you remove the bolts in the posts - has posts with threaded
>centers. I will be modifying the boxes to keep them totally covered and away
>from the seat swivels. My second choice would be Trojan.
>
>Karl
>
>
> On Tue, 1 May 2012 12:53:11 -0400, Derek Drew
> <derekdrew@DEREKMAIL.COM> wrote:
>
> >I chimed into the thread at
> >http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6013002#6013002 the
> >following information.
> >
> >I am probably among the first to have fit such massively long-lasting
> >and powerful batteries into the front two underseat locations so I am
> >passing it along that it can be done:
> >
> >Derek wrote, in the thread:
> >
> >I installed under the drivers seat the Sears Platinum deep cycle
> >PC31, group size 31, similar in size to Odyssey PC 2150. This battery
> >has 205 Reserve Capacity, unlike the group size 65 / PC1750
> >batteries, which have more like 135 reserve capacity. The group size
> >31 also beats the group size 65 with 100amp hours vs. 68 amp hours
> >for the Group 65. The front seat still swivels. The battery sticks up
> >higher than it normally would, but is hidden behind the grey rug. In
> >order to do this installation, you have to trim the corner of the
> >seat swivel (which doesn't look bad) and also trim some metal from
> >the area under the driver's seat. Would I do it again? Yes.
> >
> >The battery under the drivers seat is Sears Item# 02850131000 Model# PM-1.
_______________________________________________
Derek Drew
Washington DC / New York
derekdrew@derekmail.com
Email is best normally but...
PHONE: 202-966-7907 (Call the number at left normally)
(alt/cell for diligent calling only): 703-408-1532
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