Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 06:14:26 -0400
Reply-To: Dennis Haynes <d23haynes57@HOTMAIL.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Dennis Haynes <d23haynes57@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Idle control system
In-Reply-To: <8CF3DE0FE7ADC34-1D78-166DC@webmail-m056.sysops.aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Does the engine idle near set speed with the valve electrically
disconnected? Set idles speed to at least 850 without the valves help.
Proper adjustment is done with a current meter or duty cycle meter. Even
with the valve not operating the engine should be able to carry the AC load.
Idle speed will drop but it should keep running. It is possible you have an
engine performance issue and the idle valve can't compensate.
Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On Behalf Of
Steven Sittser
Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2012 5:42 AM
To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
Subject: Idle control system
I'm having trouble with the idle - and, I believe, the idle control system -
on my 88 Westfalia. It's been going on for a long time, and I could use some
help resolving it.
The primary symptom is that, at idle, the engine will die if the air
conditioner is on. If I keep the air conditioner's fan speed low (1 or maybe
2), the engine will come close to dying, but will usually (not always) stay
running.
Here are the details.
A year or two ago I took the van into a shop for this problem and others.
The shop - a rather expensive one - claimed great familiarity with Vanagons,
and in fact had another one in the shop when I first came. I have since come
to the conclusion that they are utterly incompetent. I frequently ended up
finding problems with their work, and having to bring the van in over and
over again for the same problems. After wasting a great deal of money on
their repeated failures to fix the idle problem - oddly, their attempts
rarely involved the idle control system - I have given up on them.
I have been studying the idle control system myself, reading just about
everything I could find, and pouring over multiple wiring and system
diagrams. I fear that I may now have become a useless expert on the idle
system: I know almost everything about it except how to make it work.
Here's the current situation:
(1) The incompetent shop replaced the idle control valve. The new one is
marked "VDO 4908-202-008-003Z". The usual part number for the valve (from
Bus Depot, Go Westy, etc.) is 025-906-457A, but this web site:
http://www.partsbase.net/part/vw-025906457a says that the two are the same.
(I suspect the original one the shop replaced may have actually worked, and
the problem was elsewhere, but I was not smart enough to ask them for the
old one.)
(2) I sent the idle control module to "Module Master"
(http://www.modulemaster.com), which tests and repairs them. They said they
found some problems, and repaired the module. They believe it should work
fine now.
(3) The idle switch on the throttle has been repaired and adjusted, and
seems to work fine now.
(4) I tested the following inputs on the idle control module connector, with
the following results:
K - A/C. Tested OK: 0V when A/C off, +12V when A/C on.
31 - Ground. Tested OK: grounded.
ST1 & ST2 - Idle valve control. Tested for continuity to valve's connector:
OK.
LS - Throttle switch. Tested OK: grounded at idle and max throttle, open
otherwise.
T - Engine coolant temperature sensor. With the engine warm, there was about
250 ohms between this and ground. I'm not sure if that's appropriate or not.
LH - Power steering pressure switch. Should be grounded when steering wheel
is turned all the way either direction, but I didn't test it.
15 - Power. Tested OK: +14V when engine running.
50 - Start. Should be +12V when ignition key turned to "start", 0V
otherwise. Tested OK.
1 - Hall generator, Digifant, and/or ignition coil, I think. When engine
running, it appears to fluctuate rapidly between about +8V and +12V. I don't
really know what it's supposed to do, or what it's for.
(5) When the van is running, I get a signal of between 600 Hz and 1300 Hz at
the idle valve connector. Frequency seems to vary with different load (A/C,
steering, etc.), but not always consistently. But that may just be a
limitation in the test equipment (a multimeter with a frequency input),
since my understanding is that the idle control module doesn't change the
frequency of the signal, but rather the width of the "on" portion of the
pulse.
(6) If I remove the idle valve from the van, and apply a straight 12V to it,
the piston jumps to its limit.
(7) In the van, with the engine running, under various throttle settings and
loads (A/C, etc.), the idle valve piston never moves - it always stays
closed. The valve never vibrates or makes any sound. Most literature I've
read says the valve should hum and vibrate, but I've seen some comments
suggesting that some don't, but work fine.
(8) Module Master sent me a video showing an idle valve being tested. The
piston moves as the frequency (or pulse width) of the input changes.
(9) My idle with no load is about 800-900 RPM.
(10) Engine will die at idle if I turn on the A/C with a fan speed above 2
(or sometimes at 2 or 1). It will also usually die if I turn the steering
wheel to its limit.
(11) The incompetent shop says they are convinced that my problem is that
the A/C blower fans are drawing too much current, and the alternator can't
handle it, which is causing the engine to die. They replaced two perfectly
good alternators based on a similar theory. Actually measuring the current
draw was beyond their capability, so I showed it to them with my meter. The
two blowers each draw about 4 amps at speed 1, 6 at 2, 11 at 3, and 14 at 4.
That's about the same as the heater blower, which does not cause the
problem. I also tried disconnecting one A/C blower, and that had no effect
on the problem. So, the A/C blower fans don't seem to me to be the answer.
I figure these are all the possible causes for the problem:
(A) Bad idle valve. But: it reacts when hooked up to a battery, so it's at
least not completely dead. Plus, it's new.
(B) Bad idle control module. But: it was just repaired, and supposedly
tested OK by Module Master. It does put out some sort of pulsed signal to
the idle valve.
(C) Bad connection between module and valve. But: seemed to me to test OK.
(D) Bad input to module. But: all the relevant inputs seemed to test OK to
me, except that I don't know what #1 (Hall generator & ignition coil) should
do, nor what T (temperature sensor) should read
I guess at this point I suspect (A), and I'm considering buying a
known-working used idle valve to try, if I can find an inexpensive one.
Any suggestions for resolving the idle issue would be appreciated.
- Steven Sittser