Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2012 23:44:27 -0800
Reply-To: Scott Daniel - Turbovans <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Scott Daniel - Turbovans <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Subject: Re: was no start-my problem is intermittant sluggish starting
In-Reply-To: <8CF904713E8C097-1288-5338C@webmail-d008.sysops.aol.com>
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the starter bushing is shown on page 35.111 in Bentley.
I would divide the diangostic thinking and process into two area ..
electrical or mechanical.
you can have both going on of course.
it is , literally ..'a blockage or leakage of fluids or electrons.'
on the mechanicial side..
starter itself ..brushes and rear bushing inside it. A faulty armature
, the starter bushing in the bell housing..
not likely to be flywheel teeth or excessive end-play on the crankshaft ..
but every thing needs to be considered.
on the electrical ..
corrosion causing high resistance anywhere ..
the battery cable connections at the battery ..
any bolted connection on the positive or ground side.
heck ..battery cables have been known to corrode and deteriorate
internally from battery acid ...
but you can't see it because it's covered by the insulation.
if you get the type of battery cleaner spray that turns red in the
presence of battery acid ..
you will find your battery likely has acid on top of it ..
that conducts electricity and slightly drains the battery.
Even a brand new battery can be fualty and unable to put out a real good
'kick.'
I use the diesel vanagon battery ..
you want around 600 cold cranking amps ....400 or so might work ...but
that's on the weak side.
get an inexpensive battery hydrometer and check each cell..
you find one cell lower than the rest ..that's a bad battery.
check your charging voltage..at the alternator and battery.
You'd like to see 14 something volts. 13.8 is the minimumn acceptable.
the igntion switch of course ..the eletrical part.
Sometimes I put on a heavy duty generic starter button ..hot wired ..
that wil always get a good shot to the starter.
There is also the Starter Booster Relay ( I don't know why people these
days csll that a hot start relay ) ..
that will give you a much hotter shot of juice to the starter solenoid.
and very small current in the ignition switch.
I would measure that voltage getting to the starter ., and the battery
while cranking.
it should stay up pretty high ...say 11.5 volts when battery resting
voltage is 12.7 or so.
it's very easy to load test a battery with a load tester. ..
a good battery, well charged will keep up about 80 or 90 % of it's
resting voltage under a strong load ..
like starter cranking ...if it drops easily under load ..bad battery.
it's really the entire battery/starter/charging circuit that you need to
look into ..
unless you find 'one thing' easily.
It could easily be 5 slightly weak spots in the entire chain.
heck ..check voltage drop over a ground connection with the circuit
under laod and energized.
you do that by putting your volt meter on millivolt scale..
put on lead on one side of the ground connection ..and the other lead on
the other side, like the body.
if you get over .3 volts ( 300 millivolts ) that ground connection is
robbing some of the circuits total voltage.
ideally the vast majority of the voltage is consumed, or 'dropped' by
the consumer device...
horn, light, starter etc..
and almost no voltage is dropped in the switch device or the ground
connections....ideally.
and the positive side connections too...ideally.
I'd start with charging voltage and battery condition..
plus very intense visual examination of all connections , positive side
and ground side.
'Careful Visual Inspection' is ALWAYS the first step in diagnosis.
Lots of time you can just 'see' something ..like Sherlock Holmes or
Patric Jane on The Mentalist.
( friday trivia question ... Why does the character Patrick Jane on TV
show The Mentalist drive a Citroen ? ...free minor oil change to anyone
who gets here with a vanagon and can answer that question. )
if the battery is low on water ...plates are exposed....bad sign.
Usually means a tired battery ..can mean too high charging voltage..but
that's fairly rare.
don't add water unless plates are exposed.
I find poor or corroded battery connections fairly commonly btw.
that should keep you busy a while !
Scott
www.turbovans.com
On 11/13/2012 10:19 PM, David Clarkson wrote:
> I guess that it is the intermittent nature of the problem that makes me consider the starter bushing that Scott spoke of. Maybe in a certain position it might require more torque and draw more amperage than the battery can provide. I will check the wiring from the solenoid again and have no doubt that the reistance from the battery to the starter could be decreased with a better path (larger cable). This problem is just a bit unnerving and maybe I could bump the starter and get it to a position that would start the engine or maybe it might take the last bit of current on a Sunday afternoon after an otherwise wonderful weekend of camping in the middle of nowhere with no cell reception. Yes, as Ray Davies said, "paranoia will destoy ya" but in my eyes a reasonable dose of paranoia will keep you on the road in what is an otherwise very healthy Vanagon approaching the ripe old age of 300K. When time and better economic circumstances prevail I will upgrade the starter cables along with the long awaited second battery and solar setup. Really I will! Thanks for all the sage advice listees.
>
> David Clarkson
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dennis Haynes <d23haynes57@hotmail.com>
> To: 'David Clarkson' <dvdclarksn@AOL.COM>; vanagon <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
> Sent: Tue, Nov 13, 2012 9:35 pm
> Subject: RE: was no start-my problem is intermittant sluggish starting
>
>
>
>
> Over the years I have come across many starters that just seem to turn very
> slow. Even Bosch rebuilds. Real trouble shooting requires both a voltage and
> current meter to see what is going on. If you are getting 10.5 volts at the
> starter while cranking you can be sure you have a bad or mechanically
> binding starter. If the voltage goes below that the amp reading will tell
> you if the starter is drawing too much current or the battery-cables cannot
> keep up.
>
> Dennis
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On Behalf Of
> David Clarkson
> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2012 10:13 AM
> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
> Subject: was no start-my problem is intermittant sluggish starting
>
> I have a 90 Wetfalia with a manual transmission. I have never had the exact
> no start problem that others are referring to but do have an intermittent
> slow turning starter as though the battery is weak. I have repeatedly
> checked the battery and it checks out okay. I have even had this problem
> when the battery was brand new. The starter has been rebuilt and all the
> grounds are in great shape. I go over the ground connections all around the
> engine compartment regularly. It seems that I heard someone speak of a
> similar problem that involved something, I guess in the casing, of the
> starter being ovaled out. I am not sure how I might look this up in the
> archives. I'm sure that the starter rebuilder, although very reputable, may
> not have noticed a very slight irregularity such as this. Has anyone had a
> similar issue when starting? I can have the sluggish start symptom and then
> shut the engine off and restart and everything turns at a normal speed.
> Thanks list.
>
> David Clarkson
> 90 Westfalia?
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