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Date:         Sat, 29 Dec 2012 18:38:48 -0600
Reply-To:     Tom Hargrave <thargrav@HIWAAY.NET>
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From:         Tom Hargrave <thargrav@HIWAAY.NET>
Subject:      Re: e15
Comments: To: JRodgers <jrodgers113@GMAIL.COM>
In-Reply-To:  <50DF8097.601@gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

It's already here - many convenience stores have scanners that you just wave the right card over to charge, plus one gas station chain automatically charges your card at the pump if you have the right key fob on your key chain.

Also, I just finished an article I mentioned earlier about re-carbonating sodas in case anyone's interested. http://www.kegkits.com/Soda_Carbonation.htm

Thanks, Tom Hargrave www.stir-plate.com www.towercooler.com www.kegkits.com www.grow-sun.com

-----Original Message----- From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM] On Behalf Of JRodgers Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2012 5:45 PM To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM Subject: Re: e15

Scott, the new scanner technology could be used at toll stations in the future. Card scanners are appearing in stores now and your credit card can be scanned on the fly. It's a little scarey, but something on that order is coming. Drive by, hold out your card, scanner reads it, and you have paid the toll. No stopping. Course that has to be refined. But it will happen sooner or later.

John

On 12/28/2012 4:34 PM, Scott Daniel - Turbovans wrote: > Neat ..vuccume tube delivery of stuff .. > I can imagine that large scale .. > back up a giant tube with toys n' consumer stuff and shoot it between > major hubs. > Like at the drive up teller, only giant. > > 'if only the car was used correctly and efeicintly' they wouldn't be > the problem they are. > Reasonably sized fuel efficent carsr used intelligently would not be > that impactful at all. > > I knew when I was 6 or 7 yrs old..I just about remember where I was > standing when I realized how utterly stupid, tragic even, and wasteful > 'everyone' commutting to work at the same time is. > What a horrible waste of time and fuel. > Toll Booths too .. > toll collection that involves stopping, and accelerating ..those alone > waste jillions of gallons of fuel per day ... > and time waiting in line. > Obscenely so. Every weekday in this country there are thousands of > acres of cars , running, waiting to cross a bridge ..or pay a toll. > Totally a shame . > The convenience of reasonably sizedcares is fantastic. > I don't even consider public transit safe really ....great place for > bad guys to target victims. > I mean like, if you can afford to drive in a good safe car > ........are you gonna ride the city bus ? Hardly. > > Where I live, a huge portion of the single occupant vehciles are giant > pick up trucks. > one person, nocargo. > I really had to laugh recently ..a 90 lb young woman was driving the > longest tallest Dodge pick up they make.. > a 6,000 lb vehicle to transport one 90 lb person ... > the only thing it's good for is 'the economy' ... > People employed making thosemonsters could be put to far more > productive uses. > The car itself is not a bad thing at all .. > it's just how dumb humans are at designing them and using them non-wisely. > Few people really 'need' a 6,000 lb truck with 400 hp. > And the Vanagon .. > one of the greatest all around useful vehicles everdesigned or made. > Scott > www.turbovans.com > > On 12/28/2012 12:00 PM, Marc Perdue wrote: >> Dennis, >> >> Regarding a long-term solution, I agree; ethanol is not it. I kind of >> like the concept of the solar roadway: >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_roadway >> combined with electric cars, but there are issues there with the rare >> earth materials used in the batteries and sociopolitical climates >> that might limit the scale. I've been playing with the idea of >> building an HO-scale mini mag-lev train to test some theories that >> have been floating around in my head. >> >> One major constraint is that we have created this monstrous car >> culture (which we all love, of course) whose infrastructure is spread >> out and decentralized and which doesn't work too well for public >> transportation or mass transit. It is great and a perfect match for >> our freedom- and independence-loving United States; just hop in your >> own vehicle and drive wherever the heck you want, when you want, and >> how you want (for better or worse). I don't want to give that up >> either. >> >> I sometimes envision some kind of mag-lev/vacuum-tube type product >> delivery system to replace our trucking industry. Imagine ordering >> something on-line and having it delivered, either to your home or to >> a central receiving station in your neighborhood, within hours! >> >> Fun Friday thoughts... >> >> Marc >> >> >> On Fri, Dec 28, 2012 at 12:37 PM, Dennis Haynes >> <d23haynes57@hotmail.com>wrote: >> >>> Marc, >>> Some really good stuff here. Thank you. >>> If I recall MTBE was originally added to fuels as an oxygenate. Here >>> we saw it is winter to reduce CO emissions which are very high >>> during the warm up period and before the Cat and O2 system can work. >>> I also recall the ground water issue as that is a big concern here >>> on Long Island. >>> >>> I am still not convinced that this is the best long term approach >>> much like the ultra-low sulfur diesel fuel requirements have had >>> impact on fuel economy and cost. Depending where you are now Diesel >>> is anywhere from >>> $0.40 >>> to $1.05 a gallon more than regular gasoline. Especially in South >>> Carolina and Georgia. Think of the impact in cost of goods when many >>> large trucks only see 5-6 mpg. My RV has easily lost 1 to 1.5 mpg >>> with the newer fuels and it really hurts to pay so much more. If >>> there is a next one it will be gas. >>> >>> Dennis >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On >>> Behalf Of Marc Perdue >>> Sent: Friday, December 28, 2012 11:28 AM >>> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM >>> Subject: Re: e15 >>> >>> Scott, >>> >>> You're funny! >>> >>> I want to throw a few random things out here, with a, well, not >>> disclaimer, but full disclosure statement: In 1983, I helped build, >>> then ran an ethanol fuel plant. At this point, due to Ronald Reagan >>> killing the ethanol subsidies, it is busy producing ethanol for El >>> Salvador, assuming it is still in operation. >>> >>> We made ethanol out of many different feed stocks, including >>> government surplus milo which was going bad from being in storage >>> (still had lots of usable starch/sugar in it), brewex from >>> Anheuser-Busch's beer production, which also had plenty of sugar in >>> it, and feed corn, which is what ethanol is often made from in this >>> country. The feed corn would normally be fed to beef cattle (not >>> people), to "finish" them for market. Contrary to many arguments I >>> hear these days, you're not pulling food corn to make fuel; you're >>> using corn production that would be used in fattening beef cattle. >>> Nor are you running up corn prices because you're modifying the corn >>> supply for other markets; the price of corn is going up because of >>> the increase in oil prices. >>> >>> Feed corn is actually bad for cattle; it is hard to digest and it >>> ultimately would lead to kidney failure if you only fed them corn, >>> but it makes the meat very tasty and tender when you finish the >>> cattle by feeding them corn. >>> When you use corn to produce ethanol, you break down the complex >>> starches into sugars which the yeast eat, pooping out ethanol and >>> carbon dioxide (granted, a simplification of the process). The waste >>> which comes off the bottom of the distillation column, bottoms, is a >>> high-protein, easily digestible feed for the cattle, so we've taken >>> their feed and added value to it while pulling off 2.5 gallons of >>> 190-proof ethanol per bushel of corn. >>> At >>> our particular plant, which was located on a feed lot, the farmer >>> would scrape the cow manure into an in-ground mix tank, where it was >>> mixed with warm water from the distillation process and pumped into >>> an anaerobic digester. This produced methane, which we used to run >>> boilers to cook the corn, and high-nitrogen liquid fertilizer, which >>> the farmer would spray on his and other farmers' fields to produce >>> more corn per acre. Every ethanol plant I visited when doing >>> research before building our plant had built in numerous mechanisms >>> like this to increase the efficiency of production, to improve the >>> revenue stream, and to reduce costs. Anybody who argues that it >>> costs more energy to produce a gallon of ethanol than that ethanol >>> contains is not considering ALL of the inputs and outputs of an >>> ethanol fuel production facility. >>> >>> Regarding that last note, an earlier thread mentioned that removing >>> the ethanol from gasoline improved a vehicle's mpg, as if that were >>> some revelation. Ethanol has fewer BTUs per gallon than gasoline. If >>> you burned 100% ethanol, your mileage would be significantly worse >>> than if you were burning straight gasoline. No question. Ethanol is >>> added to gasoline as an oxygenate to improve the octane rating, NOT >>> to improve your fuel efficiency. >>> >>> Regarding the switch from using MTBE (methyl tertiary butyl ether) >>> to ethanol as an additive to increase octane and reduce knocking, >>> that was prompted by changes in policy due to lobbying on the part >>> of the ethanol fuel industry. Me, I'm not a lobbyist, had no part in >>> that; however, MTBE started showing up in the ground-water years ago >>> and we, as an industry, felt that ethanol was a better alternative >>> for us humans and our environment. >>> >>> The reason there are so many subsidies in place (actually minimal >>> relative to those afforded the non-renewable fuel industries) for >>> ethanol is that our lobbyists pushed hard to build an infrastructure >>> to support the use of cleaner, renewable fuels in this country due >>> to there being so many downsides to relying on foreign countries for >>> our energy supplies, and to relying on the use of non-renewable, and >>> limited, resources for said energy. >>> >>> Ethanol is very hygroscopic. It has to be dried completely to 200 >>> proof before it can be mixed with gasoline. Once added, it can, and >>> will, absorb any water that might be in the gasoline. You may recall >>> a number of years ago that new regulations were implemented that >>> required gas stations to replace their gas tanks and that put a >>> number of small gas stations out of business. Those regulations were >>> implemented because so many gas stations had old, leaky, steel tanks >>> that were polluting the ground-water and letting water seep into the >>> gasoline. As you all know, and have said numerous different ways, >>> water in gas is BAD and bad for our vans and every gasoline-engine >>> vehicle. BUT, as several have pointed out, it's not the ethanol that >>> pulls the water into your gas, it's your leaky fuel system. >>> The ethanol will absorb whatever moisture gets into your fuel >>> system, but it's best to keep the water out in the first place. With >>> little used engines, or engines that are stored over the winter or >>> for other long periods, it means taking preventive measures to >>> stabilize the fuel and keep the corrosion out of the cylinders, >>> carburetor, and fuel system, i.e., NORMAL preventive maintenance. >>> >>> One person pointed out that our van's owner's manuals say not to use >>> gasohol, or some such thing. Well, back in the 80s, the oil industry >>> was putting out a lot of propaganda about how gasohol would eat up >>> the rubber in your car's fuel system and how it would destroy your >>> carburetor. VW was probably hedging its bets as there was no >>> long-term study that could conclusively disprove that propaganda; >>> being as our vehicles are fuel-injected though, that must say >>> something about the quality of rubber that German cars use. I don't >>> know. Sheer speculation. There are many mysteries in how our vans >>> were designed, and my BMWs too, that just make me scratch my head. >>> When it comes down to it though, the VW Vanagon Westfalia camper is >>> one of the most ingeniously designed vehicles I've ever owned. >>> >>> One final thing: all of this discussion has brought out lots of >>> different ideas about how to maintain our vehicles longer. This is >>> ALWAYS a good thing in my opinion. I have certainly learned a lot in >>> this discussion and hope to continue to do so. I always look forward >>> to reasoned debate. >>> >>> Marc Perdue >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Dec 28, 2012 at 3:08 AM, Scott Daniel - Turbovans < >>> scottdaniel@turbovans.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Hey that's great to hear you have 7 old VW's ! >>>> Mine are all vanagons, more than 7. >>>> >>>> I mainly want to say that with today's 10 % ethanol gasoline I am >>>> just not having any problems. >>>> I douse good fuel treatments now and then.. >>>> I wouldn't dream of picking up some runing gasoline vanagon and not >>>> at least treating the fuel right away. >>>> I like Lucas brand fuel injector cleaner.. >>>> I swear by SeaFoam as a great fuel treatment ..gas or diesel , I >>>> use Stay-bil sometimes. >>>> I put Marvel mystery oil in gas sometimes.... as 'fuel system >>>> lubricant' >>>> which it says right on the jug. >>>> >>>> oh...fuel filters . Those are often neglected. I have seen syncro's >>>> where the owner didn't even know where the fuel filter was, and no >>>> one had changed it in , no kidding ..as much as 15 years. >>>> >>>> Gasoline cars I don't consider too critical about fuel >>>> filters..they're fairly tolerant .. >>>> in any case ....when you take one off, empty it out backwards on a >>>> clean dish and see what's in there. >>>> That's useful info. >>>> >>>> diesels ...they are quite sentive to fuel filters and anytime there >>>> is any starting/running weirdness ..go right to fuel filter.And >>>> don't leave on a trip without a spare fuel filte.r . >>>> I recomend a fuel additive in pump diesel fuel *always.* >>>> >>>> anyway ...it'd damp and cold where I am , and I'm just not having >>>> any real gasoline fuel problems.. >>>> nothing that normal , normal for me anyway ..care and attention >>>> can't stay on top of. >>>> I don't let anything sit around 'forever'. >>>> The very worst thing you can do for a vehicle or engine is just let >>>> it >>> sit. >>>> They are designed to be used and driven. >>>> >>>> on that Dennis recommendation to keep a tank full, when there is no >>>> or little use, then drain off that old gas .. >>>> where do ya get rid of that gas ? >>>> the only convenient thing I can think of is burn ait a little bit >>>> at a time in another vehicle. >>>> As far as I know , 10 to 15 gallons of old gasoline is not an easy >>>> thing to get rid of. >>>> >>>> Fuel treatments and addtives DO seem to help a lot to me. >>>> Letting any engine with untreated fuel in it just sit ....don't >>>> want to do that too long, especially in winter. >>>> I prefer to keep not too much gas in a seldom-used vehicle... >>>> cause it's hard to use up say 10 gallons if you don't drive or run >>>> the thing very much , and Ihavn't found condensation to really be >>>> that much a problem ..though water sure should be condensing into >>>> mosty empty fuel tanks ...I'm still not having a problem ..maybe >>>> it'st he 10 % ethanol. >>>> >>>> scott >>>> >>>> >>>> On 12/27/2012 7:05 AM, Jonce Fancher wrote: >>>> >>>>> To Help the Economy you make the fuel kill your vehicle to make >>>>> you purchase another, Get your clunker off the road and buy into >>>>> the NEW vehicle. Just helps all of us. For a fun read try Agenda >>>>> 21 or just watch videos on it. >>>>> I just love my old VWs. I have 7 and want to keep them forever. I >>>>> just don't like my government dictating what I can and can not >>>>> have and trying to destroy my personal freedoms on what I can and >>>>> can not drive and just make life harder till I cave in. >>>>> I want to keep my Vanagon on the road as long as humanly possible. >>>>> I still think it is one of the most thought out and desirable >>>>> vehicles I have ever owned and will do what it takes to make it go. >>>>> Sorry I do not want to get the government into this OR the >>>>> ecomentalists wanting to hunt me down. I just think I should be >>>>> able to purchase fuel that would help my vehicle run without >>>>> damaging the internals. I do think some things that are changed >>>>> are good, BUT there is always a counter reaction and at times you just don't see it. >>>>> Having 1.5 to 2 Gallons of Fuel dryer in my tank per fill up is a >>>>> bit much. I know what I pay in groceries and Fuel and Taxes. I >>>>> also know what I live in Michigan and wet condensation and >>>>> humidity that many on this list have never experienced living in dry climates. >>>>> I hope everyone takes this with a grain of salt, Just don't take >>>>> one side of the story is all. There are ALWAYS 2 sides and the >>>>> issue is many times you only get 1, and getting it from only 1 >>>>> Biased source does not by any means mean your getting the truth. >>>>> Also Results in Arizona are much different then Ohio and even Brazil. >>>>> I have been to Brazil and the rain forest, It is nothing like >>>>> Arizona Or Michigan / Ohio. >>>>> >>>>> All in good fun! Happy Holidays and Happy New year. Keeping the >>>>> OLD VW alive yet another year!! >>>>> >>>>> Jonce Fancher >>>>> >>>>> www.fanchers.com >>>>> 56 Single Cab >>>>> 66 Square back >>>>> 66 Sunroof Bug >>>>> 66 Porsche 912 >>>>> 71 Sunroof Bus >>>>> 78 Convertible Bug >>>>> 85 Vanagon Westy Zetec >>>>> 1 Understanding wife 2 Kids and Molly ( Beagle / Terrier Mix ) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> scott, >>>>>> i suspect your are in a dryer climate with smaller temp swings >>>>>> than we are here in ohio. >>>>>> we get condensation so bad it drips off of cars at certain times. >>>>>> motorcycle tanks around here being eaten alive with corrosion and >>>>>> on older bikes the rubber parts are disintegrating. Unfortunately >>>>>> the Japanese have not changed their rubber compounds so your 10 >>>>>> dollar o ring is gone in 6 months. There is no alcohol free gas >>>>>> within 100 miles of here. >>>>>> I poured out a quarter cup of water from a lawnmower that is used >>>>>> every 2 weeks. The only way to fight it is to run as low as >>>>>> possible all the time keep the least amount in the tank. Google >>>>>> gasohol phase change! What a joke! On the eco modders forum a >>>>>> fellow took 5 gallons of gas and ran the miles covered that he >>>>>> got from it then he took the alcohol out of exactly the same gas >>>>>> and ran what was left over the same course and got more miles >>>>>> from a lesser amount of fuel. this test was repeated several >>>>>> times with the same results. I am getting a hit of about 2 mpg on >>>>>> my 85 westy. that and lots of small engine problems mean I am out >>>>>> of pocket several hundred dollars a year, not to count how much >>>>>> of the taxes are going to subsidise the food based ethanol and >>>>>> the rise in corn prices which affects most other food prices, >>>>>> notice any rise in your grocery bill? >>>>>> rant over >>>>>> mike >>>>>> >>>>> >>> > ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1382 / Virus Database: 2441/5492 - Release Date: 12/28/12


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