Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2013 13:03:57 -0800
Reply-To: Scott Daniel - Turbovans <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Scott Daniel - Turbovans <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Subject: Re: No Start Cause: Relay Failure. PICS, Thoughts.
In-Reply-To: <CAB2Rwfhzw_1L6YP0oqjOXpixEBntwv3z+BvjB6EZ-ehwhLC+8Q@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Why not just use the main and FP relays and relay holder base out of an
83 and later waterboxer vanagon?
They rarely, rarely give any problems at all..
and they are as common as can be.
on VW's that have CIS fuel injection, just guessing................. I'd
expect those fuel pumps, since they run at much higher pressure than
digifant type EFI fuel pumps ...would draw more current and have bigger
relay pins. But for Digifant type EFI ....regular size relay pins would
be fine I'd think.
It's a rare day indeed when I even have to think about a main or FP
relay in a waterboxer vanagon ( with waterboxer relay set up ) or a
subaru conversion vanagon. I do like those subaru relays too - I've
never seen one fail in anyway ..just one of those parts that you just
NEVER ever think about even. Basically just 'unknown' to fail as far as
I know.
they must have good wave tanks.
S.
On 2/6/2013 12:12 PM, neil n wrote:
> Thanks Dick and David.
>
> Thanks *very* much for insights into what may have happened. Yes,
> maybe that solder joint was re heated. The insulated female terminal
> from 30 to relay shows what may be a slight small burn mark.
>
> The replacement 109 relay is a different design; the pins go directly
> to the internal parts. Which begs a question:
>
> How do I know which way the relay box goes back on the relay base?
>
> Other relays have the diagram lining up with the 87 pin side but that
> may not mean much.
>
> Bad me, I didn't note the box position while eye balling the 109 relay
> with trouble light and magnifying glass last night. A small notch on
> the box coincides with a notch on the relay base, so I positioned the
> box this way. My concern is that the formed bits inside the top of the
> box may interfere with the switch if not assembled correctly. Seems
> not but.....
>
> Maybe the newer relay design was an improvement but points on
> vibration and lack of relay socket are well taken and appreciated.
> This was something I'd wondered about.
>
> Since this was my first time at a swap (or work of this magnitude), I
> went with OEM wherever possible. I assumed the 109 relay had some more
> complex electrical "voodoo" going on so I made a point of using that
> part. Same with fuel pump relay. The ABA fuel pump relay has large
> 30-87 terminals and a small 85 terminal (ECU) so a generic relay block
> was of no use. The 109 also has the small 85 pin. IIRC, I had been
> using a relay socket for the 109 along with a separate wire to 85 pin.
> Yes. Seems so. Image:
>
> https://sites.google.com/site/tubaneil2/PowerRelayDiagram.jpg I
> don't recall when or why I deleted this socket.
>
> For the record, the FP relay seems to be fine, though *maybe* it sees
> less current going through it? (fuel pump and HO2S relays share the
> circuit)
>
> Maybe I'll use WBX 53 relays or at least a more "standard" 40 Amp
> type. They will fit a FLAPS type generic relay socket. Both the Jetta
> Power Supply and Fuel Pump relays have a suppression component
> (appears to be a resistor) in parallel on 85 and 86 so I would make
> sure a substitute relay has same.
>
> Neil.
>
> On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 11:44 PM, Dick Wong <sailingfc@dslextreme.com> wrote:
>> Neil,
>>
>> From the looks of the solder joint, the "extra" flux (brown stuff) that is
>> visible around the solder pad indicates that someone was in there soldering
>> that very joint before. So someone else had the same problem. The crack
>> looks to be jagged with some wrinkles on the surface of the solder around
>> the break (nice pictures). To me this means the joint cracked due to
>> mechanical stress and heat. The mechanical stress may have been from
>> vibration. Check the contacts of the relay too. If the contacts are pitted
>> and dull there probably is a lot of resistance and that causes high heat.
>>
> On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 1:34 AM, David Beierl <dbeierl@attglobal.net> wrote:
>
>
>> Fascinating. As Dick says, the flux suggests prior rework. The first image
>> clearly shows a large melt zone caused by arcing around the terminal
>> (delimited by the curved line midway between the terminal and lead), and in
>> the second there appears to be a fracture zone around the righthand lead as
>> well, not surprising under the circumstances. Since 63/37 solder (which
>> solidifies abruptly) is expensive, the solder used in the wave tank will
>> have had a mushy zone between solidus and liquidus.
>>
>> This relay clearly was not designed to be used without a socket to
>> mechanically support the terminals, and/or the mechanical staking of the
>> terminal into the relay baseplate has failed. I'd suggest getting a socket
>> under it or its replacement if at all possible.
>>
>> Yours,
>> d
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Neil n
>
> 65 kb image Myford Ready For Assembly http://tinyurl.com/64sx4rp
>
> '88 Slate Blue Westy to be named.
>
> '81 VanaJetta 2.0 "Jaco" http://tubaneil.googlepages.com/
>
> Vanagon VAG Gas I4/VR Swap Google Group:
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/vanagons-with-vw-inline-4-cylinder-gas-engines
>
| 
