Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2013 15:27:31 -0800
Reply-To: Scott Daniel - Turbovans <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Scott Daniel - Turbovans <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Subject: Re: No Start Cause: Relay Failure. PICS, Thoughts.
In-Reply-To: <CAB2Rwfg36kra1k8G1EhxkTHb_T=1LX4JRQud=w=iuoOQWDrRQg@mail.gmail.com>
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so far I am not sure that's a diode in there.
You could just try operating it with current flowing the other way though ..
and see what happens.
What I saw in the picture was a thing shaped like a can in parrallel
with the little energizing coil.
I wouldn't think that's a diode at all.
Page 97.5 of the Green Vanagon Bentley manual shows..
the first item even, at the upper left of the page ..a little can like
that is a resistor,
which makes perfect sense to meinside that relay parallel to the
energizing coil.
I can't help being somewhat of an artist about engine conversions..
how things lay and look ....how neat they are ..
and with a lot of attention to making it reliable ( really .....stock
factory installations are mostly really well done in the automotive
world, generally speaking . but not jettafuse boxes IMO , more or less )
a lot of the conversions I see ....it appears that they only cared that
'it ran' ...
sloppy and a gross installation is fine, evidently.
I'm justsurprised at how people 'make stuff up ' ....put components in
weird places ..do often terrible wiring work, even on high dollar pro
conversions sometimes....wires drooped around, relays rolling around
loose under the back seat ..
all kinds of sillystuff, that people pay over $ 12,000 for sometimes.
reminds me of theold saying ..'if it's worth doing, it's worth doing right.'
takes a lot longer though , that's for sure.
do you scrounge around junkyards ?
that's where I pick all kinds of useful stuff .....ground straps say
...relays and their mounting bases ..
I end up with boxes of that stuff.
They are almost free since hardly anyone buys that stuff anyway.
Just think about how much you don't want the thing failing on you in a
heavy downpour rain or far from home in the wintertime say.
Thosejetta diagrams from the mid 90's are a lot harder to use than the
vanagon Bentely ones, to me, btw.
I would really avoid the rabbit/jetta/golf practice of putting
everything in the one fuse box.
Vanagons are far better about that ..
the fuel pump and main relays are in the engine compartment..
on a diesel vanagon the glow plug relay is in the engine
compartment....super easy to get at and work on.
VW's practice of putting all that in the main fuse box under the dash in
a jetta/golf is just to make the car cheaper to build..
those fuse boxes have had overheating issues from way back when fuel
injected Rabbis and Scrocco's first came out.
A vanagon is one of the better built VW's fron the 80's and early 90's
by far ..
and I would adapt as much is prpractical from those vehicles to your
engine conversion.
heck ...another of my rules...when you find a 'fitter' you gotta use it.
The vanagon main and fp relay setup is a perfect 'fitter' ..just begging
to be used just like it is.
all the careful fitting and engineering is already done for ya there.
scott
turbovans
On 2/6/2013 3:00 PM, neil n wrote:
> Yah, this was, and is, my first ever swap and foray into automotive
> electrical work.
>
> I had the foresight to shrink wrap around the terminals on the wires
> or use insulated terminals. However. Hindsight is 20/20.
>
> The real problem at the time was:
>
> A. sourcing terminals that push lock into a relay socket
> B. the OEM fuel pump relay has larger than normal male spades and one
> really small spade.
>
> I had the offending relay mounted in a socket at one point. I don't
> know why I changed that. Likely due to reason "A".
>
> The Jetta fuel pump relay is for sure energized by a supplied negative
> from the ECU. Oddly, the Bentley diagram for the power supply relay
> shows 30 going to 85 but the fuel pump relay shows 30 going to 86.
>
> If the OEM fuel pump and power supply relays each use a diode as a
> suppression device, I have to wonder about the polarity of this
> component in each relay given the differences as shown in the Bentley
> diagrams.
>
>
>
> Neil.
>
> On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 2:47 PM, Scott Daniel - Turbovans
> <scottdaniel@turbovans.com> wrote:
>
>> no kidding not using a relay socket is a bad idea.
>
>> Like I like to say in engine conversion work ..'do what the manufacturers
>> do' ...and they use relay sockets only, to connect to relay pins.
>>
>> lol ..'the worst' looking mickey mouse stuff I see is individual wires on
>> replay pins with some electrical tape ..
>> that always just falls off.
>> Shrinkable tubing and liquid electrical tape as needed is 5 times better.
>>
>> What is a 'wall wart" anyway .?
>> Every EFI system ECU I have ever seen energizes the fuel pump relay by
>> supplying ground to it. It's the common strategy.
>
>
>> On 2/6/2013 2:19 PM, neil n wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 1:00 PM, David Beierl <dbeierl@attglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>> At 03:12 PM 2/6/2013, neil n wrote:
>
>
>
>> Not sure if VW wanted to save money on wire, and in the process make
>> sure owners would have to purchase a "special" relays, but the 109 is
>> obviously wired from 30 to one side of the coil, so only 3 external
>> connections required. The fuel pump relay is similar. Diagram image:
>> (ignore my annotations):
>>
>> https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-qjVqWgmKgiA/UQLzz0KnCHI/AAAAAAAAGq8/dV79PgDqWQg/s720/ABA%2520swap%2520coil%2520wire%253F.jpg
>>
>> I wired in an external jumper lead from 30 to 86 of relay. It has worked
>> fine.
>
>
> --
> Neil n
>
> 65 kb image Myford Ready For Assembly http://tinyurl.com/64sx4rp
>
> '88 Slate Blue Westy to be named.
>
> '81 VanaJetta 2.0 "Jaco" http://tubaneil.googlepages.com/
>
> Vanagon VAG Gas I4/VR Swap Google Group:
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/vanagons-with-vw-inline-4-cylinder-gas-engines
>
