Date: Thu, 9 May 2013 23:34:09 -0400
Reply-To: Dennis Haynes <d23haynes57@HOTMAIL.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Dennis Haynes <d23haynes57@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: coolant overflow fears and thoughts
In-Reply-To: <07b801ce4d2a$440470f0$cc0d52d0$@gmail.com>
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Fun Bus has almost 256K on the original engine. Heads have never been off. I
have been using it as a daily driver again for the past three weeks testing
it for summer after it sat for over two years getting painted. I can feel
that the transmission has a cracked 3-4 slider hub, (again). I just replaced
the front exhaust pipe and the heads are starting to crumble on the outside.
As for driving the flat east coast this van been across country twice
including a trip to Alaska in 1993. Made it all the way up Prudhoe bay and
it turned 100K on the Alaska Highway between Anchorage and Denali. Over the
years I have found that the real problem with the water boxer is the support
systems. Almost all engine failures are the result of past cooling system
issues or other outside influences damaging the engines. As for rebuilds not
lasting as they should part of it is replacement part quality, incorrect
assembly, or re-using consumable parts without the proper machine work or
they are just done. Unfortunately the case is a wear item. The factory
rebuilds almost always had a new case. Machined and welded heads with over
size valve guides, yes, reground cranks, sometimes just the rod journals,
not the mains, reused cylinders, re ground and hardened cams, metal sprayed
and reground flywheels, yep seen it all but almost always a new case. There
was a reason. The other problem I find is that the cuase of the original
engine failure is often not found or corrected until that problem has also
damaged the replacement engine.
Fun Bus does run Mobil 1, 15w-50 and usually 7,500 mile change intervals. I
also have a very effective oil cooler system on it. When on trips I drive it
somewhat hard. Depending on traffic I'll run it 65-75 mph stopping for fuel
and potty. The engine still maintains proper oil pressure.
While the head gasket design is not the best the engine itself is very well
suited to being operated at the upper limits just like most truck engines
are operated. The piston design and floating cylinder sleeves make for an
engine that can dissipate heat, be pre-ignition (ping) resistant and operate
under a sustained load for long periods. It is not super-efficient or
powerful but it will get the job done.
Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On Behalf Of
Stuart MacMillan
Sent: Thursday, May 9, 2013 10:59 PM
To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
Subject: Re: coolant overflow fears and thoughts
That's just the beginning! Figure $3000-$4000 by the time you drive off
with tax and all the other stuff you'll need to replace just to get a decent
warranty from the shop.
All good advice here, but you really have to be a fearless DIY mechanic with
a decent collection of tools, jacks, jack stands, workbench, spare time,
etc., and prior engine messing experience to tackle the WBX. I'm an
experienced DIYer and won't tackle it. If you have AMC heads, then it's
been "rebuilt" before, and probably not the bottom half, only a head
replacement.
I'm on my fourth WBX. It's in my "new" '85 van and is the original engine,
and hope it will last for one more summer camping season before I do the
Subaru conversion I'm acquiring parts for.
The stock engines can go for a long time. Dennis can attest to that because
he knows how to take care of them and drives the flat east coast between NY
and FL (pushing 300k miles I think?), but rebuilds don't last anywhere near
as long and are very expensive. You simply can't get quality parts for the
WBX today, and they are labor intensive to fix, so it's a waste of money
IMHO. You'll likely have to get a complete new exhaust system that doesn't
fit well too (yours is 30 years old!), so add that to the cost.
Do you know how to extract a broken stud? You will likely need to, and it
can be easier to get a new head. Alistair has a story on how he heat
hardened a broken stud trying to drill it out that he'll share with you. I
felt his pain:
http://gerry.vanagon.com/cgi-bin/wa.exe?A2=ind0408D&L=vanagon&P=R38163
You and I are mere mortals, not gurus with real shops like Alistair or
Dennis. You can try to patch it up as cheaply as possible (and it won't be
cheap), but you will likely need new heads (of questionable quality) since
the eroded sealing surface cannot be machined. Your best alternative is to
find a serviceable used engine and start saving for a Subaru or Bostig
conversion if you want to keep the rig for the long term. There are plenty
of them around the Northwest. I'll have a serviceable one available next
winter (I hope). Note I didn't say "good," just "serviceable," and likely
serviceable for only a short time.
Again, good luck. I've owned one of these since 1986, and I've learned my
lesson now. Sort of-- and it's been painfully expensive. Spread out over
40 years it doesn't look so bad though, and I'm spending more again now
since I've jumped back into the abyss.
Whatever you decide it will be worth it, since there is no replacement for
these rigs.
Stuart
'85 Westy, fourth in a series of VW campers
-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Carchrae [mailto:carchrae@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, May 09, 2013 10:57 AM
To: Stuart MacMillan
Cc: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
Subject: Re: coolant overflow fears and thoughts
Thanks Stuart. I know it... I just called a local shop and they said
it would be around 1500 to do the head gasket job, and another 500 per head
if they need replacing. Sigh.
Tom
