Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2013 19:20:56 -0700
Reply-To: Scott Ohana <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Scott Ohana <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Organization: Cosmic Reminders
Subject: Re: Failed emissions for third time-Some helpful hints.
In-Reply-To: <1374437144.32701.YahooMailNeo@web160103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
As anyone considered the cat ?
It's not hard to see if the 02 sensor is acting like it should...takes
seconds with a voltmeter.
There typically is a waver if you spend enough trying to get it to pass.
though this is the first time I have heard of it being 'one time' for a
given vehicle.
Check to see if after a certain age it's exempt from smog checksthere.
1967 vehicle is 46 yrs old..
you'd think by that age they'd let them be.
Many states have smog rules that varyby location..
Phoenix likely can have real smog issues..
out in the boonies it's often different , less rigorous smog checks.
On 7/21/2013 1:05 PM, David M wrote:
> Hi Dennis,
> Since you seem to give the most informative replies, I'll address this to you. I had some symptoms before I took the van to this place and aside from the emissions failures.
> The symptoms were a momentary hesitation when travelling at speed like a sudden fuel or air starvation. This happened just a couple of times. I also had the issue of the van refusing to move after pulling up at a light. The engine cut out once when idling and once while driving. This was not a gradual lowering of the revs until it stalled but a very sudden cut-out almost like the ignition had been switched off.
> The guy said the van was running rich and I believe him because after he adjusted the timing and the mixture, the van ran much better. However, nothing he did affected the emissions readings that much. He said the O2 snsor was working properly but I don't know how he determined that. He told me he had retarded the timing as much as he could.
>
> As far as I know in Arizona (certain counties) there is no 'extension'. All vehicles 1967 and newer are subject to emissions every 2 years (Diesels every year) and you cannot register the vehicle until it passes. You can get a one-time waiver after you spend $450 or more but only one waiver in the life of a vehicle and it has to be declared to the buyer if you sell the vehicle.
>
> David
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Dennis Haynes <d23haynes57@HOTMAIL.COM>
> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
> Sent: Friday, July 19, 2013 5:19 PM
> Subject: Re: Failed emissions for third time-Some helpful hints.
>
>
> The air temperature sensor was never readily available as a separate part. I
> have never seen one go bad. It is part of the air flow meter and it does
> very little for the operation of the engine. Basically air temperature is a
> consideration for determining the actual mass of the air at a given volume
> flow rate. Colder air is denser. Anyway, a replacement AFM will have this
> part.
> After the engine is warmed up and the ECU goes into "closed loop" operation
> the O2 sensor should be the ultimate control. The AFM then deals with speed
> and throttle "changes", closed throttle engine being overrun and full
> throttle. The AFM mixture screw is only effective near idle and if any long
> term change is made to mixture then something is really too far out of range
> for the O2 sensor system to compensate or O2 sensor is not working. The
> throttle switch is very easy to check, is available. Even if you can’t get
> the assembly the micro-switch itself is available at good electronics
> suppliers and a harness can be made to connect it. Usually it just needs to
> be adjusted except on the 1.9L engine where someone has swapped the
> connectors with the warm up regulator instantly destroying the switch.
> For the coolant temp sensor there are two, one for the ECU and one for the
> gauge. When the ECU sensor goes bad the usual problem is starting and cold
> idle, especially in warm weather or hot re-starts. If it starts, runs, and
> goes into closed loop "O2 sensor control" that sensor is fine. Most of the
> time a problem sensor is really a connection or ground issue. I have fixed
> many by re-seating or replacing the connector. And check those ground wire
> connections!
>
> NOx is produced during the combustion process under certain pressure, (load)
> and internal temperature, (peak flame temperature), conditions. That is why
> the test is done on the dyno. The only tools the Vanagon engine has to
> control NOX is the low compression and the moderate ignition timing curve.
> Proper timing is extremely important. If it is over advanced which some
> folks do to make the engine more responsive or to run smoother excessive NOx
> will be the result. Also, a rich mixture reduces, not increases the
> formation NOx. Also, make sure you have the correct spark plugs. Too high a
> heat range or the wrong protrusion into the combustion chamber can have a
> bad effect. The water boxer does not have an EGR system as many engines do
> to reduce or control NOx. As for after treatment, the Catalyst is the device
> to reduce the NOx along with unburned hydrocarbons and carbon monoxide. This
> is why it is called a three way cat! Now in order for this to work very
> tight mixture control is required by the O2 sensor. As these reactions
> require both an oxidizing (reduce HC and CO) and reduction (NOx) the O2
> sensor has to constantly switch from rich to lean, otherwise known as
> crossover. If the sensor is not working the cat can't do its job and can
> also be damaged.
>
> Contact your state DMV and see what the requirements are for getting an
> extension. It may be easier than you think. It is probably based on if
> repairs are going to cost over $XXX or you have already spent $XXX you can
> get an extension until the next cycle.
>
> From experience you probably have a bad catalytic converter.
>
> Dennis
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On Behalf Of
> David M
> Sent: Friday, July 19, 2013 7:16 PM
> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
> Subject: Re: Failed emissions for third time
>
> The shop is called German Autotec on Main St in Mesa.
> I jsut spoke to them on the phone.
> They said they connected a diagnostic tool to the ECU (he called it a
> ';break-out box') and it indicates the coolant temperature sensor, the
> throttle switch, the AFM and the air-temperature sensor are bad.
> He quoted me $450 plus $50 labor just to replace the AFM.
> The throttle switch and air temperature sensor he said are no longer
> available.
>
> Not sure what to do now. He said he'll charge me $150 for the diagnostic
> work so far and of course I've paid $55 in emissions testing fees. My
> registration expired at the end of June.
>
> David
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Karl Wolz <wolzphoto@q.com>
> To: 'David M' <covrambles@YAHOO.COM>; vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
> Sent: Friday, July 19, 2013 1:56 PM
> Subject: RE: Failed emissions for third time
>
>
> Who are you taking the van to? Were the readings before the cat
> significantly different than those after?
>
> I'd suggest taking it to Import Car Specialists at 16th St and Indian School
> - 602-265-6412 - talk to Ray,
> Or Myer's European on McClintock and McKellips. Their # is 480-946-5200.
>
> Good luck,
>
> Karl Wolz
>
>
>
> |-----Original Message-----
> |From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com]
> |On Behalf Of David M
> |Sent: Friday, July 19, 2013 1:15 PM
> |To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
> |Subject: Failed emissions for third time
> |
> |I posted a while back about my 1987 Vanagon failing the AZ
> |emissions on CO and NOX levels.
> |The place I took it to said it was running rich and they
> |adjusted the timing and mixture. Then they told me to drive it
> |50-75 miles on the freeway to 'clean out the exhaust'. Well I
> |did that and took it back in and they put it on their exhaust
> |analyser. They said it should pass now so I had it retested
> |(free) and it failed on CO and NOX again. CO and NOX were down
>
| 
