Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2013 23:03:34 -0400
Reply-To: Marc Perdue <mcperdue@GMAIL.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Marc Perdue <mcperdue@GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Bad fuel economy (solution) Ethanol, LVC
In-Reply-To: <BAY179-DS307C64633811B0B7CF6E7A0370@phx.gbl>
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I have been told that people shouldn't listen to my comments about
ethanol because I was actually in the business of producing ethanol
for fuel for a time. I just wonder if anybody else here would actually
go into such a business without doing their research first and finding
out if it makes sense. I sure wouldn't, and didn't.
A lot of emotional arguments have been made here about why we should
hate ethanol, claiming there's lots of studies that have been done
supporting these arguments. Fine. Cite your sources. My information is
from actually doing the work in the field. I do happen to agree that
we shouldn't be increasing the amount of ethanol in our fuel, but my
reasons are different. Ethanol is not the right renewable fuel source
to replace gasoline; we need a radically different solution to our
transportation problems. Ethanol can help in the interim, but it's no
long-term solution. Incidentally, I'd be willing to bet that a Vanagon
could be easily converted to run on 100% ethanol, if one wanted to.
But I'm not recommending that.
At any rate, you use what feedstock makes sense for you, economically
and given your plant setup and what kinds of feed stocks you can
process. Beets and sugar cane are much easier to produce ethanol from
because you don't have to break down starches to produce sugar, as you
do with corn. Much of the energy of ethanol production using corn is
in the process of cooking the corn to break down the starches into
sugar. We used a number of different feed stocks, including waste
brewex from Anheuser-Busch, government-surplus milo, as well as corn.
The other feed stocks did NOT produce other useful products, so they
tended to be less cost-effective.
The ethanol used as an oxygenate in gasoline comes from many different
feed stocks, though it is primarily corn in this country. It is
something we know how to grow well.
Regarding it taking away from the food channel, you have to keep in
mind that the corn used to produce ethanol is feed corn, which is fed
to cattle. If you take only that corn and don't increase the amount of
corn grown just to produce ethanol (granted, a big if...this is just
for the sake of discussion), you are making no net change to the food
channel. The reason is that you take a bushel of feed corn and produce
not only 2.5 gallons of 190-proof ethanol, but you also have a
higher-grade, more easily digestible feed stock for cattle and other
livestock. This also addresses the other issue, which is true, that it
takes more BTUs to produce a gallon of ethanol than is actually in
that gallon. BUT, you are not only producing ethanol, you are
producing other products at the same time. You have to look at the
whole process holistically, not just at the production of ethanol
alone.
Regarding the amount of water used in the process, that is a concern
and an issue that needs to be addressed in the short-term, while we
find other fuel sources for our cars, or develop entirely new means of
transportation. The use of ethanol in gasoline is only a temporary,
transitional method to reduce the use of the very toxic, very bad for
the environment MTBE.
I've already written on this list about the BTU content of ethanol and
run the numbers to look at differences in mileage of gasoline versus
gasoline with ethanol. Kim Brennan's observations are very interesting
and I think he is onto something with regards to the setup of the
engine management system. I'd like to see more data on that. The
results I've seen in my van, an '87 Westy with auto tranny and Boston
Bob big valve engine, are much more in line with what you'd expect to
see, mileage drop of 2-3%. I have not had any issues with the fuel
system of my van that I can document as attributable to running
gasoline with ethanol in it. I most certainly have had issues in lawn
mowers and other such equipment, as has been noted here before.
Ben, while this is, or can be, an emotional and/or loaded issue, I'm
not so sure it's a political issue. We all want to be sure we can have
this particular means of transportation, which our Vanagons represent,
that afford us a particular lifestyle, whether it be going to and
camping out at music festivals, like I do, or any of the myriad other
uses which we on this list put our vans to. This lifestyle is very
important to us all and I feel it's important to be having on-going,
open, reasonable, and informed discussions about transportation
alternatives so that our voices and ideas can be part of a solution,
one that has us in mind.
Marc P.
On Sun, Sep 1, 2013 at 10:56 AM, Dennis Haynes <d23haynes57@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I think we use the corn based stuff because we can grow a lot of it.
>
> Dennis
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On Behalf Of
> Don Hanson
> Sent: Sunday, September 01, 2013 9:36 AM
> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
> Subject: Re: Bad fuel economy (solution) Ethanol, LVC
>
> On Sat, Aug 31, 2013 at 11:17 PM, Dennis Haynes
> <d23haynes57@hotmail.com>wrote:
>
>> The ethanol is really not going to kill our vehicles any more than
>> unleaded fuel or modern engine oil or even current antifreeze. The
>> ethanol bend helps reduce pollution as it is a safer oxygenate then
>> MTBE. The oxygenate helps reduce carbon monoxide emissions
>> particularly for short engine cycles and cold climate areas. In
>> addition ethanol is a cleaner burning fuel than gasoline. There is
>> probably also a benefit of the ethanol burning characteristics
>> reducing the formation of NOx. Yes there is an economy and performance
>> hit. However the EPA is working to have all of use 15% so we just have
>> to adapt. Just like all diesel will be 15% bio-diesel soon.
>>
>> Dennis
>>
>
> Just curious about ethanol and it's base. I have 'heard' that many
> other countries use beets or cane to make their ethanol and that those
> crops are a lot more effective than subsidized corn, effective at getting
> the vehicles moved for the least cost ..Some have said it actually takes
> more than a gallon of fuel in the supply chain to produce a gallon of corn
> ethanol.at the 'gas' pump. How about the sugar beet or sugar cane type
> ethanol? Is that the case there, too? Or is government-subsidized corn
> ethanol actually THE best way to make this stuff?
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