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Date:         Thu, 5 Sep 2013 09:09:04 -0700
Reply-To:     Angus Gordon <birdworks@GMAIL.COM>
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From:         Angus Gordon <birdworks@GMAIL.COM>
Subject:      Re: nuts vs head gasket job
Comments: To: Tom Carchrae <tom@carchrae.net>
In-Reply-To:  <CAFNeVpHKPQzC_RjQmmWc9tfSv8Z8=DKhKyZVMSySiMvP-1GESw@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Tom, the 2x4 hoist is to lower the engine down to the ground, not to hoist it up into the vehicle. Lower it onto a piece of plywood and you can pull that around on the gravel.

Angus

On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 4:34 AM, Tom Carchrae <tom@carchrae.net> wrote:

> Scott: in terms of stand or hoist - I don't have a garage. I've been > prepared to work on the heads without removing the engine, but if I am > going to go to the trouble of undressing the top of the engine, I may as > well pull the engine out and have a look at the clutch and so on, and it > sounds much easier to work on the heads if you can rotate the engine. > Good to know that I could rig up a 2 x 4 hoist, my drive is gravel, so a > hoist with wheels would be nearly useless. I'm thinking a 2 x 4 hoist, > then slide it to the centre of the van, mount on a stand, and work away. > > And yes, there have been enough heebie geebies, although I have had several > decent shops look at it and none have been sure it was a head gasket issue. > It might be a cracked head that farts under load... any which way, I > suspect the heads have had abuse and could at least use the JB beauty > treatment on their pockmarks, if not replacement. They are AMC heads, and > I think they've been on there for less than a decade. > > ORR; too right. I get awfully confused in metric imperial Canada. I grew > up in Ireland, where the distances were in miles and speeds in KM/H - no > wonder they produce some good mathematicians. > > Tom > > > > > > > On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 9:42 PM, OlRivrRat <OlRivrRat@comcast.net> wrote: > > > Tom > > > > 220ºC = 428ºF ~ I doubt very much that your engine would have > been > > able to achieve that CoolentTemp ~ pretty sure it would have seized &or > > blown all sorts of hoses off long before it got to that Temp' ~ If you > > meant 220ºF then that's not really terrible ~ not good but not terrible ~ > > > > > > ORR ~ DeanB > > > > > > > > On 4 Sep , 2013, at 9:45 PM, Tom Carchrae wrote: > > > > Jim: I guess I got lucky - no coolant drips. But you make a good point > >> about what a crazy system that is and why it is prone to failure. > >> > >> Scott: I have tried a few blue caps. I need to make a cap tester and/or > >> run the van with a pressure gauge on the expansion tank when the van is > >> running. (Test # 2 from > >> http://web.archive.org/web/**20050309065156/http://www.** > >> bostonengine.com/articles/**waterboxes.html< > http://web.archive.org/web/20050309065156/http://www.bostonengine.com/articles/waterboxes.html > > > >> ). > >> I've previously done a test for exhaust gasses, but no CO2 detected. I > >> have wanted to plumb a pressure gauge into the cooling system for some > >> time > >> now - I am not brave (stupid?) enough to put it in on the dash, but I am > >> definitely going to rig up a temporary one to the expansion tank. > >> > >> When I bought the van, I took it to a mechanic, who said, "hey your cap > is > >> bad, we changed it" - and he did some work on my heads, what I am not > sure > >> although it involved valve adjustment to fix low compression. After > this, > >> the cooling system started blowing up here and there and nearly $2k > later > >> I > >> was broke and annoyed and have not returned to that mechanic. I then > said > >> screw this and have most of the work on the van myself since. I drove > it > >> across western Canada and the cooling system blew up twice more on me - > >> after the first time, I changed the cap to another spare I had bought. > >> The > >> second time was due to air in the radiator and a giant traffic jam (a > >> massive mud slide on Hwy 1) and the van actually overheated (went to > >> ~220oC > >> and it was full of water) and the coolant sensor popped off - its > >> whereabouts are still unknown. Both times the van was pretty heat > soaked > >> and running at slow speeds - I learned a lesson there. > >> > >> So, yeah, it is probably due. And I actually enjoy working on it, so > it's > >> not all bad. > >> > >> Btw, are there any engine stands and hoists that are specifically > designed > >> for working inside your van? :) > >> > >> Tom > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 6:25 PM, Scott Daniel <scottdaniel@turbovans.com > >* > >> *wrote: > >> > >> PS to my last post. > >>> Make sure it's not the blue pressure cap. Try another one. They are > >>> notoriously flakey sometimes. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> On 9/4/2013 4:37 PM, Jim Felder wrote: > >>> > >>> The head bolts and the heads do two things simultaneously, and do only > >>>> one > >>>> of them very well. > >>>> > >>>> They hold the aluminum ring that serves as a true head gasket; that > is, > >>>> that gasket confines the compression gases to within the cylinder, > >>>> without > >>>> leaking it to the outside world. The other thing that is going on is > >>>> that > >>>> the head also squeezes a rubber gasket between the head and the water > >>>> jacket on the block. This is imprecise. Normally, the compression head > >>>> gaskets do not fail very often. That is not true of the outer water > >>>> gasket > >>>> which is held in place by the same head bolts. Think of it s a circle > >>>> (actually two circles on each side) of metal, with very precise > clamping > >>>> pressure to hold in the combustion gasses, surrounded by a rubber > gasket > >>>> which deteriorates, holding in the coolant. > >>>> > >>>> Guess which is going to go first? > >>>> > >>>> Yep, the rubber. If your head bolts are tight enough to contain the > >>>> combustion gasses, but you are leaking water, you are not going to > >>>> affect > >>>> the rubber more than a thousandths or two by tightening the already > >>>> tight > >>>> bolts holding the compression gaskets in place. If you are leaking > >>>> coolant, > >>>> it is because your rubber gaskets have a breech somewhere, not because > >>>> there is not enough pressure on them. > >>>> > >>>> It always makes me feel better to go through the procedure or > tightening > >>>> the bolts as you suggest, but, in the end, you will have to pull the > >>>> heads > >>>> and replace the outer rubber gaskets. > >>>> > >>>> Jim > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 11:54 AM, Tom Carchrae <tom@carchrae.net> > wrote: > >>>> > >>>> I've put this off long enough. I got a few trips from my van this > >>>> > >>>>> summer, > >>>>> but on the last day I drove it, it backed up the coolant in the > >>>>> reservoir > >>>>> (behind licence plate) three times in one day. I would pull over > when > >>>>> the > >>>>> blinking low-coolant light turned on, drain the coolant out into a > >>>>> bottle, > >>>>> start the vehicle, open the hot pressurized tank, and pour the > coolant > >>>>> back > >>>>> where it belonged. > >>>>> > >>>>> Yesterday I took the valve covers off and used a torque wrench to > >>>>> inspect > >>>>> the tightness of the nuts on the heads - well, all the easy to get to > >>>>> nuts > >>>>> (so all but the two behind the air intake - I have only removed the > air > >>>>> filter box so far). > >>>>> > >>>>> I have only done one side so far, but I found one of the bolts in the > >>>>> centre of the head to be slightly under spec (37lb). I recall Dennis > >>>>> Hayes > >>>>> saying (email below) that this managed to solve head gasket symptoms > >>>>> 50% > >>>>> of > >>>>> the time if done soon enough. I doubt I have been soon enough, but > how > >>>>> does one tell. > >>>>> > >>>>> I am prepared to do the head removal but boy would I be happy if it > was > >>>>> as > >>>>> simple as tightening some nuts. Would I be overly hopeful to think > >>>>> that > >>>>> this minimal nut tightening this late would save me having to remove > >>>>> the > >>>>> heads? > >>>>> > >>>>> Tom > >>>>> > >>>>> 84 Vanagon > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> On Thu, May 9, 2013 at 2:19 PM, Dennis Haynes < > d23haynes57@hotmail.com > >>>>> > > >>>>> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> One problem with relying on the sniffer tests is that they are > looking > >>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> for > >>>>> > >>>>> un-burned hydrocarbons. In order for this to work in addition to the > >>>>>> leak > >>>>>> you also need a combustion failure in the leaking cylinder. While > >>>>>> cracked > >>>>>> or > >>>>>> loose heads may also cause a combustion issue you are in deep > trouble > >>>>>> by > >>>>>> the > >>>>>> point the sniffer tests pick it up. Keep in mind if those gasses can > >>>>>> get > >>>>>> out > >>>>>> in some cases coolant can get into the cylinders. Antifreeze into > the > >>>>>> cylinders and then into the oil can cause some real damage. Long > >>>>>> before > >>>>>> antifreeze in the oil is visible the stuff becomes extremely > corrosive > >>>>>> > >>>>>> and > >>>>> > >>>>> can quickly destroy bearings along with crank and cam surfaces. It > can > >>>>>> > >>>>>> also > >>>>> > >>>>> destroy pistons by blowing out the tops and destroying the ring > lands. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> If the engine has ever been overheated, (even before a rebuild) or > has > >>>>>> > >>>>>> had > >>>>> > >>>>> the heads off for any reason loose heads can be the cause. I > probably > >>>>>> > >>>>>> have > >>>>> > >>>>> a > >>>>>> better than 50-50 success rate in fixing these issues just be > >>>>>> retourqing > >>>>>> the > >>>>>> heads if the problem has not been left so long that the head seals > >>>>>> > >>>>>> (inners) > >>>>> > >>>>> or the tops of the cylinders have burned or pitted away. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Dennis > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > > >


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