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Date:         Mon, 2 Sep 2013 14:51:43 -0700
Reply-To:     Scott Daniel <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From:         Scott Daniel <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Organization: Cosmic Reminders
Subject:      Re: Bad fuel economy (solution) Ethanol, LVC
Comments: To: JRodgers <jrodgers113@GMAIL.COM>
In-Reply-To:  <5224D70C.5070302@gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

re "Any plant based fuel grown in soil is subject to all kinds of vagaries - blight, drought, locust plagues"

Brazil does quite well with cane ethanol , very successful at it, for running cars there. Big National Geographic story on it a few years ago. The processing plants even generate their own electricity from the fuel they produce.

not saying it's perfect or a panacea ...just that at least that one country has done a lot in the direction of not using fossil fuels for cars. I believe they are a net exporter of petroleum even.

On 9/2/2013 11:21 AM, JRodgers wrote: > Nice write-up, Marc. > > My experience with alcohol based fuel - Methanol with a dash of benzene > for ignition and combustion mixed with a bit of castor oil for > lubrication! Works great - for model airplane engines!! > > But with cars and the like - no experience. BUT - it's an engineering > problem primarily so far as the engine is concerned, and I'm sure that > inventive minds is working that out even as we discuss the issue. > > But - I perceive a problem. Any plant based fuel grown in soil is > subject to all kinds of vagaries - blight, drought, locust plagues, you > name it - it's gonna happen and result in fuel shortages. I consider > corn based fuels for any long term application to be sheer folly. Feed > stock corn may be working for fuel for the time being - but you are > right - at the very least it should not be considered part of the food > supply as well. Virtually all feed stock corn nowadays is GMO corn and > I don't let that stuff anywhere near my dinner table. In fact - I don't > even like meats from livestock that have been fed feed stock corn > because its all GMO these days. I look for grass fed if I can find it. > But that is a separate issue. The use of vast regions to produce nothing > but corn for fuel, and the huge water consumption to grow it and then > process it, are going to become very limiting factors in using it for > fuel production. That kind of use and consumption is one more step > towards screwing up the biosphere in which we live - and after a point - > it will become unlivable. And we are moving relatively rapidly in that > direction, IMHO. > > John R > > On 9/1/2013 10:03 PM, Marc Perdue wrote: >> I have been told that people shouldn't listen to my comments about >> ethanol because I was actually in the business of producing ethanol >> for fuel for a time. I just wonder if anybody else here would actually >> go into such a business without doing their research first and finding >> out if it makes sense. I sure wouldn't, and didn't. >> >> A lot of emotional arguments have been made here about why we should >> hate ethanol, claiming there's lots of studies that have been done >> supporting these arguments. Fine. Cite your sources. My information is >> from actually doing the work in the field. I do happen to agree that >> we shouldn't be increasing the amount of ethanol in our fuel, but my >> reasons are different. Ethanol is not the right renewable fuel source >> to replace gasoline; we need a radically different solution to our >> transportation problems. Ethanol can help in the interim, but it's no >> long-term solution. Incidentally, I'd be willing to bet that a Vanagon >> could be easily converted to run on 100% ethanol, if one wanted to. >> But I'm not recommending that. >> >> At any rate, you use what feedstock makes sense for you, economically >> and given your plant setup and what kinds of feed stocks you can >> process. Beets and sugar cane are much easier to produce ethanol from >> because you don't have to break down starches to produce sugar, as you >> do with corn. Much of the energy of ethanol production using corn is >> in the process of cooking the corn to break down the starches into >> sugar. We used a number of different feed stocks, including waste >> brewex from Anheuser-Busch, government-surplus milo, as well as corn. >> The other feed stocks did NOT produce other useful products, so they >> tended to be less cost-effective. >> >> The ethanol used as an oxygenate in gasoline comes from many different >> feed stocks, though it is primarily corn in this country. It is >> something we know how to grow well. >> >> Regarding it taking away from the food channel, you have to keep in >> mind that the corn used to produce ethanol is feed corn, which is fed >> to cattle. If you take only that corn and don't increase the amount of >> corn grown just to produce ethanol (granted, a big if...this is just >> for the sake of discussion), you are making no net change to the food >> channel. The reason is that you take a bushel of feed corn and produce >> not only 2.5 gallons of 190-proof ethanol, but you also have a >> higher-grade, more easily digestible feed stock for cattle and other >> livestock. This also addresses the other issue, which is true, that it >> takes more BTUs to produce a gallon of ethanol than is actually in >> that gallon. BUT, you are not only producing ethanol, you are >> producing other products at the same time. You have to look at the >> whole process holistically, not just at the production of ethanol >> alone. >> >> Regarding the amount of water used in the process, that is a concern >> and an issue that needs to be addressed in the short-term, while we >> find other fuel sources for our cars, or develop entirely new means of >> transportation. The use of ethanol in gasoline is only a temporary, >> transitional method to reduce the use of the very toxic, very bad for >> the environment MTBE. >> >> I've already written on this list about the BTU content of ethanol and >> run the numbers to look at differences in mileage of gasoline versus >> gasoline with ethanol. Kim Brennan's observations are very interesting >> and I think he is onto something with regards to the setup of the >> engine management system. I'd like to see more data on that. The >> results I've seen in my van, an '87 Westy with auto tranny and Boston >> Bob big valve engine, are much more in line with what you'd expect to >> see, mileage drop of 2-3%. I have not had any issues with the fuel >> system of my van that I can document as attributable to running >> gasoline with ethanol in it. I most certainly have had issues in lawn >> mowers and other such equipment, as has been noted here before. >> >> Ben, while this is, or can be, an emotional and/or loaded issue, I'm >> not so sure it's a political issue. We all want to be sure we can have >> this particular means of transportation, which our Vanagons represent, >> that afford us a particular lifestyle, whether it be going to and >> camping out at music festivals, like I do, or any of the myriad other >> uses which we on this list put our vans to. This lifestyle is very >> important to us all and I feel it's important to be having on-going, >> open, reasonable, and informed discussions about transportation >> alternatives so that our voices and ideas can be part of a solution, >> one that has us in mind. >> >> Marc P. >> >> >> On Sun, Sep 1, 2013 at 10:56 AM, Dennis Haynes >> <d23haynes57@hotmail.com> wrote: >>> I think we use the corn based stuff because we can grow a lot of it. >>> >>> Dennis >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On >>> Behalf Of >>> Don Hanson >>> Sent: Sunday, September 01, 2013 9:36 AM >>> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM >>> Subject: Re: Bad fuel economy (solution) Ethanol, LVC >>> >>> On Sat, Aug 31, 2013 at 11:17 PM, Dennis Haynes >>> <d23haynes57@hotmail.com>wrote: >>> >>>> The ethanol is really not going to kill our vehicles any more than >>>> unleaded fuel or modern engine oil or even current antifreeze. The >>>> ethanol bend helps reduce pollution as it is a safer oxygenate then >>>> MTBE. The oxygenate helps reduce carbon monoxide emissions >>>> particularly for short engine cycles and cold climate areas. In >>>> addition ethanol is a cleaner burning fuel than gasoline. There is >>>> probably also a benefit of the ethanol burning characteristics >>>> reducing the formation of NOx. Yes there is an economy and performance >>>> hit. However the EPA is working to have all of use 15% so we just have >>>> to adapt. Just like all diesel will be 15% bio-diesel soon. >>>> >>>> Dennis >>>> >>> >>> Just curious about ethanol and it's base. I have 'heard' that >>> many >>> other countries use beets or cane to make their ethanol and that those >>> crops are a lot more effective than subsidized corn, effective at >>> getting >>> the vehicles moved for the least cost ..Some have said it actually >>> takes >>> more than a gallon of fuel in the supply chain to produce a gallon >>> of corn >>> ethanol.at the 'gas' pump. How about the sugar beet or sugar cane type >>> ethanol? Is that the case there, too? Or is government-subsidized >>> corn >>> ethanol actually THE best way to make this stuff? >> >


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