Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2013 22:54:28 -0700
Reply-To: Scott Daniel <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Scott Daniel <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Organization: Cosmic Reminders
Subject: Re: Runaway Engine RPMs
In-Reply-To: <CAHTkEuK=_kAxvsG4zXyy5mQiwggXbSEYf4DO-zVPrqaR2RN73w@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Hi Don..
that is a 'sport engine' ...
optimzed for max power, which, especially in engines without variable
valve timing means more oomph at higher rpms.
for example, the pretty modern 2.0 16 valve Ford engine Idrove in a
vanagon about a year ago .
was pretty weak until near 4,000 rpm ..then it was strong from there to
6K rpm
a waterboxer is quite weird actually ..
most regular engines trade off some top end zip for decent low end power.
Waterboxers have none of that.
They make their power from 2,200 to about 4,500 rpm ..
and there is almost no differnce in seat-off-the-pants power at 2,500
rpm as there is at 4,200 rpm.
Very weird that way until youget used to it.
and very oddly ..the sound and feel about the same at 2,200 or 4,200 rpm ..
and it's not 'that hard' to be at 55 to 60 mph in an auto trans vanagon
wondering why the tach is reading 4,800 rpm ..
oh crap ! I'm still in 2nd. Not that hard to do at all. I even like a
red floor lighting LED that makes it very easy to see at night which
gear the shifter is in.
I do find myself checking to make sure I'm in 4th at 60ish mph too ...
with a waterboxer there's not a lot of difference between 3rd and 4th in
sound and apparent power at that speed.
Just as you are extra proud of your 'hybid' 2.0 ABA block/1.8 8 valve
head ..with semi-enhanced exhaust ...
I'm real proud
of my 2.1 wbxr running on 85 Digiget EFI and cooling system ..
but including 2.1 full intake and exhaust system, and even the 2.1 oil
cooler ..
that combo with stock 4 speed treans goes up 'most freeway' hills in 4th
gear ..
pulls lots of grades at 50 mphin 4th. Real pleased. Fuel economy can be
as bad as 16.5 if I push things or there's a headwind..
19.5 is probablyabout the top she'll do.
Runs real sweet though, and real wide torque curve ...very flat torque
curve too .
see below ..
On 10/10/2013 9:57 PM, Don Hanson wrote:
> I wouldn't be too concerned about a short period of 3K no-load rpm.
>
> Early Friday post by a few hours...
>
> I'm amazed at how low in RPMs the WBX motors seem to like to make their
> 'power'
>
> I have a Honda 600 cc sport bike, of about the same era as the last WBX
> motors that doesn't even come on until 8000 rpms and is red lined at
> 14,000rpm. Heck, it warms itself up at 3000rpms before the EFI closes
> down the enrichment mode. It also makes the same HP as a Vanagon
> motor..but it weighs 365lbs (is that really almost 10:1 better ratio in HP
> to Weight?) and has a six speed gearbox.. of course, you can't sleep in
> it or carry a sheet of plywood..
>
> My 2.0 inline VW begins to make power at about 2500 revs and keeps
> getting stronger till about 5000, with it's best power about
> 3700rpms...perhaps that is why those who are used to the standard WBX
> Vanagons don't feel comfortable right away driving an inline powered
> Vanagon....
>
> and my one looong ride in a diesel vanagon? The driver was going uphill
> at 25 in 5th gear before he shifted down to 3rd or something...didn't seem
> to faze him or change the glacial pace of our accent up this long
> hill....When my 50-yr old former bicycle racer S.O. passed us (she only
> held us off for a few hundred yards, but still) on her bicycle going up
> that 7% climb...that is when I decided I just couldn't own a stock diesel
> Westie...
Diesels won't last a really long time being pushed really hard at low
rpm, IMO.
I know one old guy that short-shifted every single shift in his 1.6 TD
factory Syncro vanagon ..
and floored it after each and every shift at about 1,700 rpm..
He pounded out the ring grooves in the pistons of that engine , and a
full rebuild lasted him about 40K miles and it was puking oil.
This is partially why I say 'some people' are really abusing their
vanagons and have no idea they are doing that.
> Every motor seems to have a sweet-spot. My ABA/8-valve inline van
> seems to like around 3700rpms (65mph in 5th) My Honda likes to cruise at
> 6000-8000rpms, my Powerstroke diesel truck likes 2300.. My S.O.s Subaru
> seems to shift a lot for no apparent reason, but it seems to like to lug
> along...maybe that is why Vanagon conversion peeps like those motors in
> their vans...similar power band, just more of it.
>
> Ramble ramble...
I always found 64 mph indicated in top gear to be a real Sweet Spot in
my turbo diesel vanagons.
I am getting closer to when I can start installing my 2.0 16Valve VW I4
gas engine in an 85 body. That'll be fun.
( I have a 1.8 16 valve engine or maybe only block , with piston oil
squiters, that I'd sell btw.
I have an 8 valve head I'd sell too. )
I have some plans to make my 2.0 a less peaky motor too.
the Subaru torque curve is 'somewhat' like waterboxers..
though not nearly as flat ..
and lots more ...feels like twice as much.
I 'finally' just got a 2002 Forester SOHC 2.5 running in a Syncro Vanagon..
I already like that engine .
no Air Flow Meter or Air Mass Meter, just a MAP sensor .....started and
ran and idled perfectly on the first try.
I want one.
One nice thing about those engines is a whole other 1,000 rpm to play
with ( not to mention 4 valves per cylinder, knock sensor ingition and
no distributor ). - Like to use say 4,500 rpm any time you want is not
over about 78 % of total available engine rpm . Nice.
Fuel milage should be similar to what you get ..
able to touch the low 20's and still go down the road at a good clip.
Vanagons Rock,
S.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 10, 2013 at 7:53 PM, Scott Daniel <scottdaniel@turbovans.com>wrote:
>
>> I wouldn't be too concerned about a short period of 3K no-load rpm.
>> If it was brand new rings or something ..then yes, but on a well used
>> engine that's fairly healthy, with decent oil in it, I wouldn't give it
>> a thought.
>>
>> not quite the same engine..
>> and, the official way to adjust the max rpm, per Bentley, on a diesel
>> vanagon engine is set the max throttle lever stop screw at 5,050 rpm (
>> or something close to that ) and take the reading and do the adjustment
>> with no loadat that rpm.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 10/10/2013 7:09 PM, John Meeks wrote:
>>
>>> Right Stuart...
>>>
>>> I've checked that nothing in that linkage is jammed or stuck. AND it
>>> stopped happening after a cooldown.and restart but not after a momentary
>>> shutdown.
>>>
>>> I have the Digifant Pro Training manual on my phone. That's logic. I like
>>> Scotts' idle control unit idea . Pro Training has s page on that.
>>>
>>> 3000 RPM with no load for more than a few seconds IS pretty disconcerting.
>>>
>>> John
>>> '
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Oct 10, 2013 at 9:35 PM, Stuart MacMillan <stuartmacm@gmail.com
>>>> wrote:
>>> Definitely follow logical troubleshooting procedure, which means check
>>>> the
>>>> simple stuff first. That's always the mechanical things you can see and
>>>> feel. Electrons are only detected by magic.
>>>>
>>>> I've had this happen and it was something that dropped on the throttle
>>>> lever
>>>> and jammed it. Broken cruise control cable I think. The good thing is
>>>> the
>>>> ECU will cut off the injectors before the engine self-destructs!
>>>>
>>>> At least that's what happened in my case, but at the time I thought I
>>>> destroyed it.
>>>>
>>>> Stuart
>>>>
>>>>
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