Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2013 18:35:22 -0800
Reply-To: Scott Daniel <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Scott Daniel <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Organization: Cosmic Reminders
Subject: Re: off with her heads
In-Reply-To: <CAFNeVpF+s3CzZ_noCVvkYbM1FxjVMTxrRrK6VtKStiMDr-VYYA@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
see below ...
On 11/7/2013 3:48 PM, Tom Carchrae wrote:
> Dear List,
>
> I finally got to spend some time cleaning the heads up today. They appear
> in good condition; absolutely no pitting (they are replacement heads) and
> as far as I can see, no cracks between the valves (I'm aware that sometimes
> you can't see the cracks).
>
> I suspect the stuck head/cylinder is the one that was causing the issue.
> Unlike all the other head/cylinder holes, there was a large amount of
> carbon on the edge (rim?) of the head (where the sleeve slides in - ie,
> above the compression gasket - which was also difficult to remove),
> particularly on the bottom of it. Does this mean Dennis was probably
> correct?... that tightening the head would have cured that - quite likely!
> However, the same cylinder had a broken piston ring - but that could have
> been caused by my failed prying efforts.
>
> In my experience ..where there are head gasket issues ..
re-tightening is only a temporary or emergency measure.
>
> Some questions:
>
> * I'm not sure what gunk they used on the water jacket, but it sure is hard
> to remove. Any suggestions? I've been using brake cleaner on the heads,
> which worked well on the carbon, but not on the gunk. I guess I need some
> kind of heavy duty solvent, acetone or something like that?
>
> * I don't have any equipment to measure the cylinder or any special tools
> for measuring the cylinder wear or piston play. I'm likely just going to
> skip this. :/ Are there any useful checks I could do without any special
> tools? I presume the main reason to do this check is to get an idea of how
> much life is left in this engine.
If you really want a barrel measured for taper and if worn beyond spec,
just take it to your machine shop. They do that routinely with their
bare micrometer.
And ....it sounds like you might just be planning to do rings ..or even
rings on just that one piston . Hone the barrels, use, in your break-in
oil, Lucas brand Engine Break-In Oil Additive Zinc Plus.
Generally ..the cylinder barrels and rings and pistons are not the weak
area on these engines. Like do a decent job on putting in new rings and
you'll get some more life out of it.
Btw...
considering this is a 1.9 ....if you can get your hands on a 2.1 long
block ...that'll bolt right where your 1.9 was. Every part swaps over
perfectly to run either long block in either van/cooling system/EFI. I
run a mix of those parts myself ...a 2.1 long block + 2.1 exhaust and
intake and throttle body in an 85 with Digijet EFI ..works like a
dream. Since it has the 2.1 exhaust I also have the 2.1 oil cooler/heat
exchanger on it too. Runs very strong...climbs most hills in 4th gear
at 50 mph or above.
>
> * I'm pretty sure the flywheel oil seal is leaking - or something down that
> way (oil pump cover seal perhaps). I have the seal in a head gasket kit,
> but then I read this: http://www.gowesty.com/library_article.php?id=535 -
> is this true?
>
> WELL SHOOT ..CAN'T KEEP MY FONT GOING .....I have not had many problems with rear main oil seals. I use good german ones that are all red or red lipped.
> I read the GW page. With totally freshly built up engines they'd want a few years of no oil leaks there I expect.
> I think I saw this earlier in this tread .....'something down there like oil pump seal' ..makes me think the poster things the oil pump is below the flywheel and oil seal on it ( aka Rear Main Seal ) . It's not . Flywheel and oil pump are at different ends of the engine.
>
> * I snapped the heads off the bolts (#12) on the thermostat housing
> (annoyingly, these are bolts that I shouldn't have touched in the first
> place). They are connected a plate (#10) which connects the short hose to
> cylinder #4 (an 84 van). This shows #10 & #12:
> http://www.jimellisvwparts.com/images/parts/VW/fullsize/004016050.jpg -
> I've tried to pull the plate off so I can replace the bolts, but it is
> very stuck on there with some kind of goop. When I peeled a bit of goop
> away with a screwdriver, it resembles grey chewing gum and has lots of
> fibres in it.... asbestos?!?... hmm and crap. One option is stick it back
> on without the bolts as it is so stuck. Part of me really does not like
> that but that seems simple/easy/hopeful. Or, I chisel away at this
> asbestos/gum material, grip and remove bolt remnants, and then replace
> bolts and goop. Or I try and source an 84 thermostat housing - boo - they
> seem rare. My current thinking is to see if I can somehow 'creatively' add
> some fasteners to this plate and then I'll fix when/if it leaks - not happy
> about this. It also appears someone did some somewhat dodgy work on this
> thermostat housing as I also noticed there was no yellow gasket seal where
> the pipe that crosses past the flywheel goes - it looks like someone just
> squirted a bunch of goop in to seal it...
Oh good ..got my font back. This engine sure if fighting you, lol. The
Dreaded Previous Owner ..or his tech with the kyprtonite asbestos goop.
I remove stuff like that with a power wire wheel brush. It doesn't tear
up the metal, but removes stuck on hard stuff.
I can see it's tempting to paste it back together..
and if a different engine is in your bigger plans , that would help
justify pasting it back with a broken stud.
Otherwise ...it would be better to rebuild that area properly. I sort of
specialize in keeping 1.9 wbxr t-stat housings ...
they have a few failure modes.
Those long bolts ........in there where they can corrode badly over
time ....the holes in the housing need to be really cleaned
out..enlarged even .
and there needs to be generous anti-seize compound on those long bolts.
You can see how important Workmanship is ...and it sounds like you are
fighting really awful workmanship here.
I have like 7 of those blocks ..want another to play with ?
At this point if I was just going to work with this one engine
block....I'd think about putting a 2.1 crankshaft in it. Spitting the
cases and repairing everything in there is a lot of work. The last two
waterboxer cases I had apart had cams with worn cam lobes. One of those
engines I bought as 'rebuilt' too ...from a local foreign car parts
store. It was a total joke.. Actually ..come to think of it ..
both of these engines were 'rebuilt' and they both had about 10 things
done wrong on them, and worn cam lobes.
I am about to put this totally complete 1.9 waterboxer engine that I
have from an 85 Vanagon into one of my vans just so see it run, sort it
out until it's perfect...check oil pressure and compression ..
then offer it for sale ..as one full piece , ready to bolt in. Maybe no
muffler on it ..but otherwise ...a full, full ready to bolt-in 1.9 wbxr
engine, and I don't think I'm going to ask that much for it. It's a
take-out from a Subaru engine conversion. I'm sure it has a good couple
of years in it .
It's in Oregon btw.
Scott
> It seems one step forward, two steps back. But at least I am moving on.
> Maybe this van will run before the year is out.
>
> Tom
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 2:13 PM, Scott Daniel <scottdaniel@turbovans.com>wrote:
>
>> I have that of course.
>> And ..if baring and barring are both valid words ..
>> Windows XP isn't smart enough to deduct which one is correct from the
>> context.
>>
>> It's not fridae yet, but don't get me started on auto-correct features
>> in smart phones that change words and people don't catch it.
>> I've seen 'vog' ( volanic fog in Hawaii ) turned into 'bog' and it
>> wasn't what the writer intended.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 10/24/2013 2:05 PM, Jim Felder wrote:
>>
>>> And here I had been thinking you had invested in some autocorrect
>>> technology : )
>>>
>>> Jim
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 4:02 PM, Scott Daniel <scottdaniel@turbovans.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> I have always been very speeling challenged !
>>>>
>>>> On 10/24/2013 1:43 PM, Jim Felder wrote:
>>>>
>>>> No, "barring." Baring might get him arrested, especially if he were
>>>> driving
>>>> around doing it in a Vanagon.
>>>>
>>>> Jim
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 3:31 PM, Scott Daniel <scottdaniel@turbovans.com>
>>>> <scottdaniel@turbovans.com>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> HI Angus ..
>>>> on the 'bar thing'..yeah, Angus turned me onto what you meant.
>>>> The word you wanted was 'baring' .
>>>>
>>>> On the rings ..I find that compression rings go in fairly easily ..
>>>> it's the oil rings that are a tight squeeze sometimes.
>>>>
>>>> One way to gauge piston ring and barrel wear is to remove an old ring
>>>> from that piston,
>>>> put it in the barrel and measure the end gap of the ring, then compare
>>>> that to spec.
>>>>
>>>> You'll likely find pretty 'good' wear.
>>>>
>>>> I forget how many miles on your engine ..
>>>> and it's always .."Do I just fix what's really broken or worn badly ? ..
>>>> or do I go further ?
>>>> And ....once you do 'this' ..then might as well do 'that' too ..
>>>> and it just keeps growing that way.
>>>>
>>>> Need to draw the line somewhere ..
>>>> it's tempting to do new rings and rod bearings ...
>>>> but then you might as well do X too ...........etc. etc. etc.
>>>>
>>>> yes, the right forward cylinder is # 1 .
>>>> VW has used that numbering pattern in their oppossed fours since about
>>>> 1950, if not before that even.
>>>>
>>>> here's a neat trick ..
>>>> when you are adjusting your valves, turn the engine backwards to get to
>>>> each cylinder on compression in turn ...
>>>> that it's 1, 2, 3 , 4 . Confirm which cylinder you are on by dist
>>>> rotor position .
>>>>
>>>> If anyone is interested in rebuildable 1.9 core waterboxer engines ....I
>>>> have about 6 and don't want much for an assembled short block.
>>>> You can make a 1.9 DH code engine into 2.1 by putting a 2.1 crankshaft
>>>> in it.
>>>>
>>>> Scott
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 10/24/2013 8:08 AM, Tom Carchrae wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> @Scott:
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for confirming about the valves. I'm not entirely sure which ring
>>>> it is, I'll go and have a closer look today. Btw, I didn't adjust
>>>> anything
>>>> with a bar - bar was meant as a synonym for 'except'. I am pretty sure
>>>> it
>>>> is cylinder #1 (it is the closest to the passenger seat).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> @Dennis;
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Oct 23, 2013 at 10:50 PM, Dennis Haynes <d23haynes57@hotmail.com>
>>>> <d23haynes57@hotmail.com>
>>>>
>>>> **wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Please take this as training.
>>>>
>>>> I do take it that way - mistakes are the best teacher, so they
>>>> say?....
>>>> but
>>>> still enjoying learning and working on it.
>>>>
>>>> I also very much appreciative of all the time and insight you, and
>>>> others,
>>>> on the list are so generous with.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> At the point that compression test was taken
>>>>
>>>> that engine should have been taken out of service and further
>>>> evaluated.
>>>> All
>>>> the cylinders are down and the one with 60 psi indicates a failure. If
>>>> you
>>>> had an emissions test program it should have failed. The catalyst is most
>>>> likely shot. More concerning is while that cylinder was down the
>>>> remaining
>>>> three had to work harder to compensate.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That is the strange part - it passed the emissions test fine, not even
>>>> close to failing. The mechanic who did the compression test also thought
>>>> it would be a problem. So, I don't understand how that works, except
>>>> perhaps that Vancouver's AirCare is a farce - one that they are ceasing
>>>> to
>>>> operate next year.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This often translate to increased
>>>>
>>>> wear on the rod bearings. The oil contamination from unburned fuel
>>>> doesn't
>>>> help things. Before taking the engine a part a leak down test would help
>>>> to
>>>> diagnose if you had a valve or a ring problem.
>>>>
>>>> This is was my most expensive lesson. I took it to a mechanic, and
>>>>
>>>> asked
>>>> him to do a leak down test, and to look at the compression problem. He
>>>> reported back that he had got the compression back up by adding racing
>>>> lash
>>>> caps. I recall asking him about the leak down, and got back 'fine', and
>>>> 'it holds pressure', and so on. It is clear from what you're saying that
>>>> I
>>>> should replace the valve adjusting screws, not just pad them with lash
>>>> caps.
>>>>
>>>> Shortly after that, he changed the expansion cap, and I started to get a
>>>> really expensive series of coolant explosions. Then I drove the van
>>>> across
>>>> western canada, with a few incidents, although after I changed the
>>>> pressure
>>>> cap to another one I didn't have any more explosions - just coolant
>>>> backup
>>>> behind the plate, and it was fine for an entire leg of the journey home.
>>>> Each experience made me want to fix it myself more - the last incident
>>>> was
>>>> taken care of while we stopped for lunch (the first involved a tow truck,
>>>> waiting around for a day, and a crappy patch on a hose).
>>>>
>>>> Anyway, all that is now water under the... no, coolant under the van?
>>>> har
>>>> har. sorry, sorry... groan-worthy.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Now that the heads are off there are some easy checks you can make. Put
>>>>
>>>> the
>>>> spark plugs in and set the heads with the combustion chambers facing up.
>>>> Fill the chambers with some light liquid like WD-40 or even carb cleaner.
>>>> You will find leaking valves real fast.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thanks. I'll give that a shot before I dig further into the valves. I
>>>> saw
>>>> a video of someone doing that, but it was on a different type of engine.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The exhausts should not be ground.
>>>>
>>>> If the seat are cut or the valves ground the stems should be shortened
>>>> and
>>>> the springs shimmed to compensate. This is to maintain spring pressure
>>>> and
>>>> rocker geometry. Adjusting screws should always be replaced. If the valve
>>>> guides are worn it is likely time for new heads. These are a heat the
>>>> head
>>>> to 400 and cool the guides in liquid nitrogen fit. Otherwise they tend to
>>>> go
>>>> in off center and the seats will need a lot of cutting to compensate.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ...and I though the spring tool was going to be fiddly.
>>>>
>>>> They are newish AMC heads, no pitting (aside from some crowbar
>>>> scratches).
>>>> I think they were done 5-10 years ago according to the receipts log,
>>>> but
>>>> I'm not sure both sides were done at the same time. I've read the bit
>>>> about the AMC valves being terrible. I'll do some more reading up on how
>>>> to check those (aside from WD-40 test)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Back
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> when VW rebuilt these heads they almost always ended up drilled out and
>>>> fitted with oversized guides. A lot of labor. Make sure the intakes get
>>>> the
>>>> oil seals. ETKA does not show them but they should be there. I have a
>>>> bunch
>>>> in stock. They will keep oil from getting sucked down the intake guides.
>>>>
>>>> and that would help prevent the valves and cylinder getting filthier?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You need to remove that carbon ridge at the top of the cylinder. The new
>>>> top
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ring can get broken hitting it. If honing the cylinders remove as
>>>> little
>>>> material as possible. A few more thousandths and you will have an engine
>>>> with piston slap noises. With the cylinders out at least measure the rods
>>>> for play and bearing wear. The rods and bearings can be replaced without
>>>> splitting the case, (this sucks but do-able).
>>>>
>>>> I've been reluctant to pull any more cylinders out until I try getting
>>>>
>>>> one
>>>> back on.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Good luck,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Dennis
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thanks Dennis - very much appreciated.
>>>>
>>>> Tom
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
| 
