Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2013 13:36:34 -0800
Reply-To: Scott Daniel <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Scott Daniel <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Organization: Cosmic Reminders
Subject: Re: making a little headway but need advice
In-Reply-To: <9217A68D-41FE-4FAF-AFE7-DEAA580B5C2C@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
HI Steve..
yes, # 3 is the 'paired opposite' of # 1.
# 1's valves will be closed and not moving around engine postion # 1 TDC
to fire..
and # 3's will be ....exhaust finish closing - intake starting to open.
you might enjoy this ...years ago in the 70's I worked on some Dodge V-8
...had the distributor out ...
needed to know what the Paired Opposite cylinder to # 1 was so I could
get the dist in right.
Took me a while to figure this out ..........but I came up with The
Formula for what is the paired opposite cylinder to # 1 in any 4 stoke
engine ?
whether 4, 8, 10, 12 cylinders etc. ( might not apply to 3 cylinder
engines ..but applies to all 2 cylinder engines on up ..as long as they
have an even number of cylinders. )
anyone care to say what it is ...?
the question is ....if you have the firing order of any engine, and it
starts with 1 , which they all do ..
say 1,5,8,7,2,4,3,6 ( I just made that up, it's not a real V-8 cylinder
firing order ) ..
what is the formula for which cylinder is the Paired Opposte to # 1.
this is valuable to know..since if you know this ..you can get the
distributor into any engine correcctly..
even time the camshaft to the crankshaft..even if there's no indexing
marks etc.
btw...my methods are to understand things on a 'basic understanding level.'
I'm not impressed if someone knows the firing order of a Ferrari V-12 by
heart..
or if they have the book that tells how to index cams to crank.
I'm impressed if they were stuck someone where with no manual ..
no marks even ...but they could figure it out.
I did a Peugeot OHC head job once...sideways front engine FWD ....304 I
think .
The book showed a bizarre jig/tool to index overhead cam to crankshaft.
Overhead cam, chain drive.
I set it so # 4 valves where exactly evenly in point of balance at TDC
for 4 and 1 ...
dist pointing to # 1..
if fired the first instant I turned the key.
so what is that formula ?
it applies to waterboxers too.
and ..I never care what a wbxt firing order is , because .the way VW
numbers the cylinders it just works out that when turning the engine
backwards , or looking at the dist cap in a counterclockwise direction
..they go 1,2,3,4.
so you always just glance at the dist cap ...see # 1...
see if they go 1,2,3, 4 counterclockwise..
and that 1 and 3 are opposite each other. You can tell at a glance that
it's right.
that formula anyone ?
or should I just say ?
it's 8 words ..or the longer version is 11 words.
Scott
On 12/7/2013 11:48 AM, Steve Cotsford wrote:
> Thanks for your comments Scott. I must confess that my instinct would have been to remove the r/h valve cover and check the valve positions on #1 but I can see your point and reasoning. I have been working on overhead cam engines so long but clearly on this engine the cam shaft is a lot harder to look at :-) I should probably need to do that check anyway. As you say the Dizzie could have been put in 180 degrees off.
> Cheers, Steve
>
> On Dec 7, 2013, at 2:17 PM, Scott Daniel wrote:
>
>> thanks for the reference ..
>>
>> one, I'd ask how is the poster totally sure he has the engine on # 1 TDC
>> when the dist rotor points where it should.
>>
>> the only absolutly sure way to tell it's on t# 1 TDC to fire is to
>> remove the left valve cover and see that # 3 valves are in 'point of
>> balance' .that is exhaust just closing and intake just open ..
>> when # 3 does that, and crank pulley says it's at TDC ..then you know
>> it's really on # 1 TDC to fire.
>>
>> othewise you don't actually truly know. The distributor can be put in
>> out of phase or incorrectly.
>>
>> the other thought is ..
>> watching the injectors actually spray...hanging out the engine ..as
>> shown in Bently is a great test.
>> And ...only ONE little screw to remove 2 injectors per side to get them
>> hanging on the fuel hoses..
>> that is NICE ! ..
>> almost all other cars, even VW jettas with the same basic type of EFI
>> don't allow this. LIke not even a minute to get injectors on each side
>> haning out where you can watch them spray.
>>
>> oh..here's a GREAT little test too ..this is how I do it actually ...
>> rather than crank the engine on the starter to watch the injectors spray ..
>> I like to do it by turning the ( or 'a' ) distributors with my fingers
>> ..key on.
>> and each ignition pulse should make the fuel pump run, and all four
>> injectors spray together.
>>
>> I just grab my known-good spare distributor and plug the harness into
>> it, leaving the engine's distributor in place.
>> DO NOT ..
>> to be safe, ever crank the engine without a distributor installed in it !!
>> If the shims under the dist drive gear get of place...
>> they can jam on the brass crankshaft gear even ..you could have a real
>> mess to deal with.
>>
>> maybe you guys think I'm a grumpy fart ...and wouldn't blame you if you
>> did ..
>> and maybe some people can't tell I am exceptionally experienced on these
>> fine machines ...
>> or maybe some can tell that I am be pretty clever at times or hyper
>> committed to excellent results and great value ...
>> or maybe ya' all can't tell that..in any case,
>>
>> Isn't it ironic and weird
>> that someone is running an intentional fraud scheme on me about their 85
>> Westy ..claiming in legal court papers that I set their on van on fire
>> and a dozen other insane fabrications..
>> isn't that just weird ???
>> To the tune of over $ 40,000 even. Ya all please pray that rightness
>> and justice prevail here. Thanks !
>>
>> Scott
>>
>> On 12/7/2013 10:42 AM, OlRivrRat wrote:
>>> Steve
>>>
>>> I'm surprised that ScottD hasn't ChimedIn yet suggesting that you
>>> should have a NoidLight so as to be able to check for a signal on the
>>> InjectorWires. Is there possibly some sort of inductive pickup sensor
>>> that you can get for your Fluke that might provided the needed info ~
>>> probably expensive if it exists ~
>>>
>>> ORR ~ DeanB
>>>
>>> On 7 Dec , 2013, at 10:48 AM, Steve Cotsford wrote:
>>>
>>>> I am woking on the '88 Biuestar I bought back in April and I am now
>>>> feeling able to work on it. The van came with an uninstalled
>>>> 2.1 (not the original from this van) that was missing some parts
>>>> etc. which back in May I installed with replacement parts, exhaust
>>>> etc. I believe I have assembled it with all the Injection system
>>>> and ignition system complete. My progress was cut short by a
>>>> vehicle accident almost 6 months ago and only now do I feel able to
>>>> pick up where I left off.
>>>> I had a fight with an aftermarket door lock system from which I have
>>>> removed a fuse and I am now able to make the starter and fuel pump
>>>> work.
>>>> I have fitted a replacement fuel pump, filters etc and have it
>>>> working and seen fuel pressure at the system gauge point of up
>>>> around 39 psi on a mechanical gauge.
>>>> I have checked out the spark plug firing order and seen that the
>>>> distributor rotor is pointing to the right position when the pulley
>>>> mark is at TDC for cyl 1.
>>>>
>>>> I have tried starting the engine multiple times and have had it
>>>> firing consistently on 2 cylinders I believe.
>>>>
>>>> I then checked the Digifant injectors with engine turning and I
>>>> don't seem to have any spray pattern coming from them in spite of
>>>> the 39psi supply although the 2 on the l/h assembly have been firing
>>>> I believe.
>>>>
>>>> I don't have any special equipment at my disposal as I live in the
>>>> boonies about 1 1/2 hours away from a VW dealer or known VW
>>>> mechanic. I do however have a good Fluke meter and a Bentleys.
>>>> I have been working on vehicles for 45 plus years though mostly VW
>>>> diesels, Land Rovers and BMW motorcycles in recent years.
>>>>
>>>> ! Is there any advice on how I can check that the injectors
>>>> are not plugged and that they are getting a signal to activate
>>>> them? Should I just drive to a dealer or mechanic and have the
>>>> injectors pressure tested by people who know what they are
>>>> doing? Can I use my Fluke meter to determine that the injectors
>>>> are getting a correct firing signal? at the right time? How
>>>> does the ECU know when to fire the injectors?
>>>>
>>>> 2 Is there a way I can be more sure that the timing is
>>>> correct? Once again, I have checked that the firing order is
>>>> right and that the distributor rotor is pointing towards the notch
>>>> with the pulley mark at TDC on cyl 1. The Bentley gives good
>>>> advice on checking timing on a running engine but obviously I cant
>>>> do that yet. The fact that 2 seem to be firing should let me
>>>> know something right?
>>>>
>>>> 3 Any thing else that I should do? Electrical tests.
>>>> Mechanical tests. Stuff that all Vanagon Digifant owners should
>>>> know to do ??
>>>>
>>>> Thanks, Steve
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