Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 20:54:38 -0500
Reply-To: Dennis Haynes <d23haynes57@HOTMAIL.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Dennis Haynes <d23haynes57@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: compressing piston rings in engine
In-Reply-To: <CAFnDXk2go0wqE6kS-MviPC2MLr9B95b=r0=qeV1NyiOss=PTaA@mail.gmail.com>
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With the proper tool you can pull the pin putting force only on the side of
the piston. Improper use of an impact tool, (hammer), can do a real job on
the rod bearing and even the rod-cap itself. The trick with the hammer
method is to be sure the piston rests against something so the impact force
does not go to the side of the rod.
Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On Behalf Of
Jim Felder
Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2013 8:28 AM
To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
Subject: Re: compressing piston rings in engine
Scott, you must have been out the day they studied that in physics. The
force on the rod bearing is whatever it takes to move the wrist pin. It does
not matter how the force is applied.
Jim
On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 10:22 PM, Scott Daniel
<scottdaniel@turbovans.com>wrote:
> I agree..I sure wouldn't use any slide hammer..too rough on the rod
> bearings.
> I just heat the wrist pin boss area of the piston ..
> 'usually' the wrist pin will slide right out then..
> carb cleaner can help eat carbon there too sometimes.
>
> if there is one area you want really really *right* .it's the rings,
> rod brgs, wrist pins , and wrist pin clips. ...all that.
> Intense perfection and meticulous workmanship is what you want here..
> you don't want to think about this area of the engine again for a good
> while.
> heads are relatively easy to re-do if you have to. Rings ..not.
> and besides..
> 'Projects grow' ...sometimes it's 'well ...I've come this far ..
> might as well inspect the rod bearings and put new ones in" ...which
> is fiddly to do with assembled cases ...
>
> But, ..if you have new rod brgs with proper oil clearance..(
> plastigauge ) you're good there for a long long time on a 1.9 usually.
> It's just a very bothersome task.
>
> Piston with new rings is best installed into top of the barrel, as stated.
>
> need a 1.9 bottom end to practice or play with ?
> I have half a dozen at least.
> scott
> southern Oregon
>
>
>
> On 12/9/2013 2:46 PM, Dennis Haynes wrote:
>
>> Please don't use a slide hammer to pull the piston pins. You really
>> need the reamer to break the carbon ridge in the pin bore. On the
>> waterboxers the pins can slide right out.
>>
>> If the oil control rings are the three piece type you really need to
>> pull the pistons and insert from the top of the cylinders. Too risky
>> to get those in. If the older cast type oil controls rings are used
>> you should be able to work the rings in while sliding the cylinder
>> over the top. A thin steel band can be fabed and pinched together
>> with needle nose vise grips to get the rings started and ten pulled
>> out before pushing the cylinder all the way down. I just now plan to
>> pull the pistons whenever the heads come off.
>> Only
>> adds a few hours to the job and gives a reason to replace the water pump.
>>
>> Dennis
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On
>> Behalf Of Jim Felder
>> Sent: Monday, December 9, 2013 2:46 PM
>> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
>> Subject: Re: compressing piston rings in engine
>>
>> Derek,
>>
>> I have used a home-made rig like that, but with an inertia puller.
>>
>> Jim
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 1:37 PM, Derek Burgess <ddb.graphic@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Tom,
>>> Im not suggesting you remove the rods. I know some people say to,
>>> but to me, then you have a bearing job better left to when you split
>>> the case!
>>>
>>> Rods still attached.
>>> Remove the circlip's that hold the wrist pins.
>>> Then remove the wrist pins using a tool like this
>>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/nzp43gekwjteg5y/photo.JPG
>>>
>>> Ignore the fact that the piston/rod are out of the case in this
>>> photo, it can be done with them in the case.
>>>
>>> I've seen it called a piston pin puller, the Bentley actually shows
>>> a special VW tool to use, but I have never seen one in the wild- I
>>> made the one in my photo from Home Depot parts- It works, I have
>>> used it twice
>>>
>> now.
>>
>>>
>>> -Derek
>>> 1990 GL Automatic "Vikki"
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 2:12 PM, Tom Carchrae <tom@carchrae.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> Thanks Derek, that option has been glaring at me and it is looking
>>>> ever more appealing. This route looks pretty straightforward too:
>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSBQTkPh_SQ (until you drop the
>>>> nut)
>>>>
>>>> Tom
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 10:48 AM, Derek Burgess
>>>> <ddb.graphic@gmail.com
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I know this isn't a direct answer to your question: but it's
>>>> really
>>>>> alot easier to pull the pistons, get them into the cylinders on a
>>>>> bench and then install the two together. I think pulling
>>>>> circlip's and piston pins
>>>>>
>>>> much
>>>
>>>> easier than trying to push a cylinder down over a piston still
>>>>> attached
>>>>>
>>>> to
>>>
>>>> the rod. Use rags to clog the cylinder bores, do not want circlips
>>>>>
>>>> flying
>>>
>>>> down into the block.. "would not be funny" -Ben
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -Derek
>>>>> 1990 GL Automatic "Vikki"
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 1:33 PM, Tom Carchrae <tom@carchrae.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Dear List,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am trying to get the rings compressed (with pistons attached to
>>>>>> rods
>>>>>>
>>>>> and
>>>>>
>>>>>> engine in the car). I am currently in practice mode - using the
>>>>>> old
>>>>>>
>>>>> rings
>>>>>
>>>>>> but I am finding, as warned, this is bloody tricky. Not to
>>>>>> mention it
>>>>>>
>>>>> is
>>>>>
>>>>>> getting awfully cold outside - my hands nearly froze to the
>>>>>> cylinders yesterday (I am now storing them inside).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Some observations:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1) I have a standard blue steel compressor:
>>>>>> http://goo.gl/Eapbve(which has now been cut down as slim (width)
>>>>>> as possible, thereby removing a
>>>>>>
>>>>> strip
>>>>>
>>>>>> of steel that I could also use with a hose clamp) and it very
>>>>>> nearly
>>>>>>
>>>>> fits
>>>>>
>>>>>> (or maybe not) in the tight space between the water jacket and
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>
>>>>> sleeve.
>>>>>
>>>>>> If you've used one in this scenario, where did you locate the
>>>>>>
>>>>> compressor
>>>>>
>>>>>> ratchet mechanism when doing the last cylinder: top, bottom, side?
>>>>>>
>>>>> The
>>>
>>>> bottom seems to nearly work.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2) Even if I were to get the standard compressor to fit, how on
>>>>>> earth
>>>>>>
>>>>> will
>>>>>
>>>>>> I remove it? I would need to unwind it all the way and slide it
>>>>>> out I guess? Or unwind it so it fits around the cylinder? I can
>>>>>> see being
>>>>>>
>>>>> able
>>>>>
>>>>>> to do that on the first cylinder, but that seems practically
>>>>>>
>>>>> impossible
>>>
>>>> on
>>>>>
>>>>>> the second one when there is no room. If you've used the
>>>>>> compressor
>>>>>>
>>>>> (hi
>>>
>>>> Alistair!), which route did you go?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 3) It seems that the VW specific ring tool ( http://goo.gl/RdkUEp
>>>>>> )
>>>>>>
>>>>> would
>>>>>
>>>>>> be much easier to remove (but looks like fun job to get it to
>>>>>>
>>>>> compress).
>>>
>>>> Alas, while it ranges from $5-10, it seems to be out of stock in
>>>>>>
>>>>> Canada
>>>
>>>> and about $30-40 to ship. Bah. I'm considering making one from
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>
>>>>> steel
>>>>>
>>>>>> I cut from the compressor.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 4) I really liked the zip tie then cut idea from Angus Gordon. I
>>>>>>
>>>>> have a
>>>
>>>> hose clamp, but tightening it would seem quite difficult. I
>>>>>> presume
>>>>>>
>>>>> that
>>>>>
>>>>>> the way you would tighten a hose clamp is by going in the same
>>>>>> access
>>>>>>
>>>>> hole
>>>>>
>>>>>> (water pump/pipes holes) when you are doing the last cylinder?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 5) It seems the sensible order to attach cylinders would be
>>>>>> first the
>>>>>>
>>>>> two
>>>>>
>>>>>> on the rear/flywheel side and then follow by front/pulley side.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am considering dropping the engine, if only so I can (a) get
>>>>>> better access, (b) haul the engine inside to be warmer or god
>>>>>> forbid (c)
>>>>>>
>>>>> admit
>>>
>>>> defeat and take it to a shop who will roll eyes, cluck, and then
>>>>>>
>>>>> likely
>>>
>>>> punish me for my arrogance. I guess most VW mechanics are used
>>>>>> to
>>>>>>
>>>>> some
>>>
>>>> of
>>>>>
>>>>>> that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As always, thanks in advance for any illumination.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tom
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
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