Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 08:38:05 -0800
Reply-To: Angus Gordon <birdworks@GMAIL.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Angus Gordon <birdworks@GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: More questions pertaining to my 88 model Bluestar project
In-Reply-To: <F657FF3A-6CE6-4D0B-A349-1EE60DD589FA@aol.com>
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Sounds like your local water will work fine Steve. I've never been very
concerned about whether my coolant is mixed ahead of time, or by the engine.
Another consideration is premixed coolant. Actually it seems most of the
antifreeze sold in stores now is of the premixed variety, something I
originally laughed at of course (paying money for water!) but now buy for
topping up our fleet as my well water has a lot of iron, and the jugs of
distilled water tend to disappear into some other project.
Angus
On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 6:53 AM, Steve Cotsford <cotsford@aol.com> wrote:
> Well its very interesting to hear the views of people on this list, which
> like other lists has a mix of backgrounds and experience. Some folks
> are very serious about things that they use and others are a little more
> forgiving. I have heard many times that I should use distilled water
> mixed with antifreeze and I use water that is as clean as I can though I
> confess not to be too much of a purist. When you flush an entire car
> system before putting in new antifreeze, do you do that with distilled
> water? Most diy people use a garden water hose and probably use city
> water which is laced with chlorine and other chemicals that are put in to
> prevent bacterial problems and localized health issues. Some people use a
> filter which removes some of the above and most of the solids. How
> many folks make sure that every single drop of that flushing water is
> removed before adding the new mix of antifreeze and water? In a vehicle
> that is 25 years old, it is unlikely that the system is going to be super
> clean and I personally think that using new antifreeze and pretty good
> clean filtered water is probably going a good way to having a good
> functional cooling system. I like to change the coolant every couple
> of years anyway. I am fortunate in having a really good natural
> water supply. It tastes good and the plumbing in my house gets very little
> scale and stuff in the tanks. I have a 5 micron filtering system and
> there is no chlorine or other chemicals used in it. I use it just as it
> falls out of the sky and it probably gets some stuff from the air and the
> hillside i live on which is not limestone. No it is not distilled and
> suitable for purists but its pretty good. Good enough I believe for my 25
> year old hobby vehicle and I am not trying to offend anyone. I am not
> sure where round here I would buy large quantities of distilled water.
>
> I am a retired engineer and over the last three years I have been to an
> African country to assist in the commissioning of track machinery that I
> designed while I was still working and I happen to have some language
> skills that others don't have. Specifically I was in Mauritania and I
> speak French which is useful in a country which was a former french colony.
> It is almost all Sahara desert and I was working on the RR which serves a
> mining area deep in the dry wilderness. When it came time to add coolant
> to their machinery they used water that was available which was pretty hard
> to find. Really good water was kept for drinking. I used to drink
> bottled water and always showered with my mouth closed. Other than that
> I would drink the tea that they boiled up with gas stoves in the machine
> cabs and added mint from their garden. I have seen similar things in
> India and China. Folks use what they have available and can afford.
>
> Going back to my van, you are right, I should have been more thorough in
> checking the coolant hoses and I should have noticed that the hoses hidden
> by the spare wheel tray were totally missing. I am still recovering
> from a serious traumatic brain injury and there are some things that I
> don't always remember to do. Somehow or other though I am going to get
> this nice van up and running well just as I have my other vehicles and I am
> thankful for all the helpful comments of folks on this list. May I
> wish you all the best of the seasons greetings :-) !! Steve
>
> On Dec 11, 2013, at 7:33 AM, Larry Alofs wrote:
>
> > What size is your spare tire?
> > Some will say that if you have a spare with the 205 width you need
> special hoses to give it enough room.
> > These hoses are much more expensive than the standard ones.
> > Read the the info on the vendors websites, Vanagain, Busdepot,
> Van-cafe, etc. Some offer the high priced hoses; some say they are not
> necessary, some say they are no longer available.
> > I have no actual advice, but I wanted to mention the issue.
> > Perhaps others will chime in.
> >
> > Larry A.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Dec 10, 2013 at 9:27 PM, Steve Cotsford <cotsford@aol.com>
> wrote:
> > Thanks for your advice Dennis. I have been using antifreeze most of
> my motoring life and never had heard that they could not be used
> separately. I have always filled a system by adding them separately and
> then run the engine with the intention of them mixing by circulating in the
> engine and system. The water we have is not hard as we are a few feet
> from the top of a mountain and comes from a well that is for our house
> alone. Today it must have been about 50/50 and it was pretty
> consistently mixed and circulated, even the stuff that hit the ground.
> I will mix it beforehand in future though. Thanks.
> >
> > My very first water cooled engine used water alone with no antifreeze.
> It was a Scott Squirrel motorcycle that dated from the late 1920's that I
> rode in the early 1960's. The engine had cast iron cylinders in an
> aluminum crankcase and the radiator was brass. The radiator cap was solid
> brass too and had no pressure relief valve and water circulated by
> thermosyphoning. Yes it was old fashioned engineering and I wish I still
> had the thing. Knees were always warm in winter as they were behind the
> warm rad :-) We did not get extreme cold in winter over there. Where I
> live now it does get cold due to altitude so I am using more modern methods
> and materials and I will listen to those who are more experienced with them
> :-)
> >
> > My next job is to buy new hoses to replace the missing ones, flush the
> cooling system and then I will add the premixed coolant in the method you
> describe. Thanks for your advice. Steve
> >
> >
> > On Dec 10, 2013, at 8:29 PM, Dennis Haynes wrote:
> >
> > > It seems you may be trying real hard to mess this up. Since it is
> winter you
> > > should not be adding antifreeze and water separately. Even after you
> do get
> > > the engine running the water can stay separated for quite a while and
> the
> > > water slugs will freeze. So can the undiluted antifreeze. Yes,
> antifreeze
> > > needs to mix water for at least a 70-30 mix or it can become a slushy
> mess
> > > and keep the cooling system from working. Then if you are in an area
> with
> > > hard water you should not use that in your engine. Regardless of type
> of
> > > antifreeze hard water over time will do the most damage. The minerals
> > > precipitate out and the abrasive characteristics will eat water pump
> seals
> > > wear out heater cores from the inside out.
> > >
> > > When you get ready to try this again get a helper if can. You want to
> start
> > > the engine, hold it at 1,800 to 2,000 rpm and add coolant as the water
> pump
> > > sucks it down. Your helper can watch the bleeder at the radiator. There
> > > should be coolant at the bleeder in 30 seconds to a minute. Once it
> flows,
> > > close the bleeder, top off the tank, install the cap, and then let the
> > > engine return to idle. This should all be done before the engine
> warms. Any
> > > air left will self bleed unless there is a problem.
> > >
> > > Dennis
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On
> Behalf Of
> > > Steve Cotsford
> > > Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2013 6:08 PM
> > > To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
> > > Subject: Re: More questions pertaining to my 88 model Bluestar project
> > >
> > > Well today I bought antifreeze and started putting it in. I was able
> to
> > > put in 2 quarts and about 2 quarts or water. I removed the screw
> from the
> > > top of the radiator and ran the engine to circulate the coolant. I
> was
> > > somewhat surprised that I could not put any more in and I was expecting
> > > something from the top of the radiator . The engine was running
> nicely.
> > > Then all of a sudden I heard a pop and antifreeze hit the ground up the
> > > front with a little water vapour so I turned every thing off. It
> seemed
> > > pretty clear that coolant was circulating as I could feel all the
> hoses had
> > > warmed up and the engine seemed pretty smooth.
> > > I looked under the front and saw coolant so I lowered the spare tire
> tray
> > > and got the tire out. It soon became apparent. Back in May when I
> > > installed the engine I was under the van and checked out a lot of
> things.
> > > In my six months of clinics and convalescing however I had not thought
> too
> > > much about it. I had not dropped the spare tire tray before. It
> > > turns out that both the hoses that take coolant to the radiator and
> back to
> > > the engine were totally missing and plastic caps had been shoved onto
> the
> > > pipe ends. The pop that I had heard was not the rad that had burst,
> but
> > > one of the caps coming off the coolant pipe. Call me naive if you
> want
> > > but it had not occurred to me that the hoses would be totally missing
> !!.
> > > I had expected eventually a hose in poor condition and my visual tour
> > > underneath had seen nothing so I thought it was safe to fill the
> system with
> > > coolant and antifreeze. I was seriously wrong ! Oh well. At
> least
> > > the rad has not burst....yet and its no wonder that nothing had come
> out of
> > > the top of the rad seeing that nothing had gone in the bottom. Time
> to
> > > get some parts on order and fully check the front end of the system and
> > > everything in that area. I saw an electrical fan behind the radiator
> and
> > > there is a silver nipple naked on the back of the motor. Time to
> study
> > > more stuff. Steve
> > >
> > > On Dec 10, 2013, at 12:14 PM, Neil N wrote:
> > >
> > >> Larrys roadhaus link may help (this is for shops but may provide
> > >> lead?)
> > >>
> > >> http://www.roadhaus.com/shops.php
> > >>
> > >> Can Vanagon samba members be searched by location? If so, maybe leads
> > >> that way too?
> > >>
> > >> Neil.
> > >>
> > >> On 12/9/13, Steve Cotsford <cotsford@aol.com> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> Does anyone know Vanagon parts sources and gurus, here in the
> southeast?
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> Neil n
> > >>
> > >> Blog: tubaneil.blogspot.ca
> > >>
> > >> '88 Westy http://tinyurl.com/c8rlw6p
> > >>
> > >> '81 VanaJetta 2.0 "Jaco" http://tubaneil.googlepages.com/
> > >>
> > >> Vanagon VAG *Gas* inline-VR Engine Swap Group:
> > >>
> > >> http://tinyurl.com/d7gd5ej
> >
>
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