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Date:         Tue, 10 Dec 2013 09:21:42 -0500
Reply-To:     Derek Burgess <ddb.graphic@GMAIL.COM>
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From:         Derek Burgess <ddb.graphic@GMAIL.COM>
Subject:      Re: compressing piston rings in engine
In-Reply-To:  <CAFnDXk2go0wqE6kS-MviPC2MLr9B95b=r0=qeV1NyiOss=PTaA@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Interesting point about force and bearings.

With aluminum blocks like the WBX, I don't believe in doing bearing jobs without full line boring- hence why I say, don't pull the rods to get the pistons out.

In your opinion. Would bearings survive the force of a worn out case?

I can't speak from experience. I've only ever done top end rebuilds on WBXers.

-Derek mobile

> On Dec 10, 2013, at 8:27 AM, Jim Felder <jim.felder@GMAIL.COM> wrote: > > Scott, you must have been out the day they studied that in physics. The > force on the rod bearing is whatever it takes to move the wrist pin. It > does not matter how the force is applied. > > Jim > > > On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 10:22 PM, Scott Daniel <scottdaniel@turbovans.com>wrote: > >> I agree..I sure wouldn't use any slide hammer..too rough on the rod >> bearings. >> I just heat the wrist pin boss area of the piston .. >> 'usually' the wrist pin will slide right out then.. >> carb cleaner can help eat carbon there too sometimes. >> >> if there is one area you want really really *right* .it's the rings, rod >> brgs, wrist pins , and wrist pin clips. ...all that. >> Intense perfection and meticulous workmanship is what you want here.. >> you don't want to think about this area of the engine again for a good >> while. >> heads are relatively easy to re-do if you have to. Rings ..not. >> and besides.. >> 'Projects grow' ...sometimes it's 'well ...I've come this far .. >> might as well inspect the rod bearings and put new ones in" ...which is >> fiddly to do with assembled cases ... >> >> But, ..if you have new rod brgs with proper oil clearance..( plastigauge )

>> you're good there for a long long time on a 1.9 usually. It's just a >> very bothersome task. >> >> Piston with new rings is best installed into top of the barrel, as stated. >> >> need a 1.9 bottom end to practice or play with ? >> I have half a dozen at least. >> scott >> southern Oregon >> >> >> >>> On 12/9/2013 2:46 PM, Dennis Haynes wrote: >>> >>> Please don't use a slide hammer to pull the piston pins. You really need

>>> the >>> reamer to break the carbon ridge in the pin bore. On the waterboxers the

>>> pins can slide right out. >>> >>> If the oil control rings are the three piece type you really need to pull >>> the pistons and insert from the top of the cylinders. Too risky to get >>> those >>> in. If the older cast type oil controls rings are used you should be able >>> to >>> work the rings in while sliding the cylinder over the top. A thin steel >>> band >>> can be fabed and pinched together with needle nose vise grips to get the

>>> rings started and ten pulled out before pushing the cylinder all the way

>>> down. I just now plan to pull the pistons whenever the heads come off. >>> Only >>> adds a few hours to the job and gives a reason to replace the water pump. >>> >>> Dennis >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On Behalf >>> Of >>> Jim Felder >>> Sent: Monday, December 9, 2013 2:46 PM >>> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM >>> Subject: Re: compressing piston rings in engine >>> >>> Derek, >>> >>> I have used a home-made rig like that, but with an inertia puller. >>> >>> Jim >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 1:37 PM, Derek Burgess <ddb.graphic@gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>> Tom, >>>> Im not suggesting you remove the rods. I know some people say to, but >>>> to me, then you have a bearing job better left to when you split the >>>> case! >>>> >>>> Rods still attached. >>>> Remove the circlip's that hold the wrist pins. >>>> Then remove the wrist pins using a tool like this >>>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/nzp43gekwjteg5y/photo.JPG >>>> >>>> Ignore the fact that the piston/rod are out of the case in this photo, >>>> it can be done with them in the case. >>>> >>>> I've seen it called a piston pin puller, the Bentley actually shows a >>>> special VW tool to use, but I have never seen one in the wild- I made >>>> the one in my photo from Home Depot parts- It works, I have used it twice >>> now. >>> >>>> >>>> -Derek >>>> 1990 GL Automatic "Vikki" >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 2:12 PM, Tom Carchrae <tom@carchrae.net> wrote: >>>> >>>> Thanks Derek, that option has been glaring at me and it is looking >>>>> ever more appealing. This route looks pretty straightforward too: >>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSBQTkPh_SQ (until you drop the nut)

>>>>> >>>>> Tom >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 10:48 AM, Derek Burgess >>>>> <ddb.graphic@gmail.com >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I know this isn't a direct answer to your question: but it's really >>>>>> alot easier to pull the pistons, get them into the cylinders on a >>>>>> bench and then install the two together. I think pulling circlip's >>>>>> and piston pins >>>>> much >>>> >>>>> easier than trying to push a cylinder down over a piston still >>>>>> attached >>>>> to >>>> >>>>> the rod. Use rags to clog the cylinder bores, do not want circlips >>>>> flying >>>> >>>>> down into the block.. "would not be funny" -Ben >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -Derek >>>>>> 1990 GL Automatic "Vikki" >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 1:33 PM, Tom Carchrae <tom@carchrae.net> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Dear List, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I am trying to get the rings compressed (with pistons attached to >>>>>>> rods >>>>>> and >>>>>> >>>>>>> engine in the car). I am currently in practice mode - using the >>>>>>> old >>>>>> rings >>>>>> >>>>>>> but I am finding, as warned, this is bloody tricky. Not to >>>>>>> mention it >>>>>> is >>>>>> >>>>>>> getting awfully cold outside - my hands nearly froze to the >>>>>>> cylinders yesterday (I am now storing them inside). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Some observations: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 1) I have a standard blue steel compressor: >>>>>>> http://goo.gl/Eapbve(which has now been cut down as slim (width) >>>>>>> as possible, thereby removing a >>>>>> strip >>>>>> >>>>>>> of steel that I could also use with a hose clamp) and it very >>>>>>> nearly >>>>>> fits >>>>>> >>>>>>> (or maybe not) in the tight space between the water jacket and >>>>>>> the >>>>>> sleeve. >>>>>> >>>>>>> If you've used one in this scenario, where did you locate the >>>>>> compressor >>>>>> >>>>>>> ratchet mechanism when doing the last cylinder: top, bottom, side? >>>>>> The >>>> >>>>> bottom seems to nearly work. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 2) Even if I were to get the standard compressor to fit, how on >>>>>>> earth >>>>>> will >>>>>> >>>>>>> I remove it? I would need to unwind it all the way and slide it >>>>>>> out I guess? Or unwind it so it fits around the cylinder? I can >>>>>>> see being >>>>>> able >>>>>> >>>>>>> to do that on the first cylinder, but that seems practically >>>>>> impossible >>>> >>>>> on >>>>>> >>>>>>> the second one when there is no room. If you've used the >>>>>>> compressor >>>>>> (hi >>>> >>>>> Alistair!), which route did you go? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 3) It seems that the VW specific ring tool ( http://goo.gl/RdkUEp >>>>>>> ) >>>>>> would >>>>>> >>>>>>> be much easier to remove (but looks like fun job to get it to >>>>>> compress). >>>> >>>>> Alas, while it ranges from $5-10, it seems to be out of stock in >>>>>> Canada >>>> >>>>> and about $30-40 to ship. Bah. I'm considering making one from >>>>>>> the >>>>>> steel >>>>>> >>>>>>> I cut from the compressor. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 4) I really liked the zip tie then cut idea from Angus Gordon. I >>>>>> have a >>>> >>>>> hose clamp, but tightening it would seem quite difficult. I >>>>>>> presume >>>>>> that >>>>>> >>>>>>> the way you would tighten a hose clamp is by going in the same >>>>>>> access >>>>>> hole >>>>>> >>>>>>> (water pump/pipes holes) when you are doing the last cylinder? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 5) It seems the sensible order to attach cylinders would be >>>>>>> first the >>>>>> two >>>>>> >>>>>>> on the rear/flywheel side and then follow by front/pulley side. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I am considering dropping the engine, if only so I can (a) get >>>>>>> better access, (b) haul the engine inside to be warmer or god >>>>>>> forbid (c) >>>>>> admit >>>> >>>>> defeat and take it to a shop who will roll eyes, cluck, and then >>>>>> likely >>>> >>>>> punish me for my arrogance. I guess most VW mechanics are used >>>>>>> to >>>>>> some >>>> >>>>> of >>>>>> >>>>>>> that. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> As always, thanks in advance for any illumination. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Tom >>>>>


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