Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 09:06:00 -0600
Reply-To: Jim Felder <jim.felder@GMAIL.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Jim Felder <jim.felder@GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: compressing piston rings in engine
In-Reply-To: <0EBB19D9-73B4-4BF1-B0EA-A1D8190F4A66@gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
If a bearing bore is .003 oversized in any dimension, then so will be the
insert at that dimension. As Scott mentioned, plastigage is your friend. It
will save you a lot of money and trouble and it is cheap. I would not send
a block to be align mored if it didn't need it, there's always something
else to spend the money on. Nice waterboxer cases are fairly plentiful,
too, I think. If a WBX engine got really hot, I would suspect that it had
lost temper in its studs and that it possibly got warped and needed align
boring, and it that case it would definitely need to be sent to the shop at
least for measuring.
To leave waterboxers for a moment, and consider robustness in other VW
engines, I bet most waterboxer non-dieselers don't realize that the Bentley
warns not to take critical measurements with the engine in the stand, but
to do it on the bench where the weight of the block itself is not deforming
the surface being measured!
As for John's comment about doing a bunch of other stuff if you are doing
the heads, my thought is that doing the heads won't make the water pump any
more accessible so why bother. Heads are going to need outer gasket
replacing a lot more often than a waterboxer is going to need a water pump.
I say go in and do the heads and disturb as little else as possible until
the engine starts to show signs of obvious wear--burning oil, low
compression, low oil pressure. Think about it... the waterboxer is a very
good, robust (if technologically antiquated) motor with one major weakness:
the outer head gasket. If you look at this thread and many other threads,
what gets people in trouble is not bad rings, cylinders, pistons, camshafts
or bearings, but things getting messed up getting to the outer head
gaskets. Broken studs and stuck heads lead to a cascade of problems where
the shop (why many shops won't work on them) or home mechanic gets into
dealing with stuff that's not really gone bad, like the current thread
illustrates.
If you don't have a good reason to crack the case on a waterboxer, don't do
it. Don't mess with the cylinders if they don't need it and you don't have
to.
Besides, the waterboxer is the most complex bottom end I can think of. It
has been 20 years or more since I did a Porsche 911, but I don't remember
there being as many points of consideration as a waterboxer bottom end has.
Jim
On Tue, Dec 10, 2013 at 8:21 AM, Derek Burgess <ddb.graphic@gmail.com>wrote:
> Interesting point about force and bearings.
>
> With aluminum blocks like the WBX, I don't believe in doing bearing jobs
> without full line boring- hence why I say, don't pull the rods to get the
> pistons out.
>
> In your opinion. Would bearings survive the force of a worn out case?
>
> I can't speak from experience. I've only ever done top end rebuilds on
> WBXers.
>
> -Derek
> mobile
>
> > On Dec 10, 2013, at 8:27 AM, Jim Felder <jim.felder@GMAIL.COM> wrote:
> >
> > Scott, you must have been out the day they studied that in physics. The
> > force on the rod bearing is whatever it takes to move the wrist pin. It
> > does not matter how the force is applied.
> >
> > Jim
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 10:22 PM, Scott Daniel <scottdaniel@turbovans.com
> >wrote:
> >
> >> I agree..I sure wouldn't use any slide hammer..too rough on the rod
> >> bearings.
> >> I just heat the wrist pin boss area of the piston ..
> >> 'usually' the wrist pin will slide right out then..
> >> carb cleaner can help eat carbon there too sometimes.
> >>
> >> if there is one area you want really really *right* .it's the rings, rod
> >> brgs, wrist pins , and wrist pin clips. ...all that.
> >> Intense perfection and meticulous workmanship is what you want here..
> >> you don't want to think about this area of the engine again for a good
> >> while.
> >> heads are relatively easy to re-do if you have to. Rings ..not.
> >> and besides..
> >> 'Projects grow' ...sometimes it's 'well ...I've come this far ..
> >> might as well inspect the rod bearings and put new ones in" ...which is
> >> fiddly to do with assembled cases ...
> >>
> >> But, ..if you have new rod brgs with proper oil clearance..(
> plastigauge )
> >> you're good there for a long long time on a 1.9 usually. It's just a
> >> very bothersome task.
> >>
> >> Piston with new rings is best installed into top of the barrel, as
> stated.
> >>
> >> need a 1.9 bottom end to practice or play with ?
> >> I have half a dozen at least.
> >> scott
> >> southern Oregon
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> On 12/9/2013 2:46 PM, Dennis Haynes wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Please don't use a slide hammer to pull the piston pins. You really
> need
> >>> the
> >>> reamer to break the carbon ridge in the pin bore. On the waterboxers
> the
> >>> pins can slide right out.
> >>>
> >>> If the oil control rings are the three piece type you really need to
> pull
> >>> the pistons and insert from the top of the cylinders. Too risky to get
> >>> those
> >>> in. If the older cast type oil controls rings are used you should be
> able
> >>> to
> >>> work the rings in while sliding the cylinder over the top. A thin steel
> >>> band
> >>> can be fabed and pinched together with needle nose vise grips to get
> the
> >>> rings started and ten pulled out before pushing the cylinder all the
> way
> >>> down. I just now plan to pull the pistons whenever the heads come off.
> >>> Only
> >>> adds a few hours to the job and gives a reason to replace the water
> pump.
> >>>
> >>> Dennis
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On
> Behalf
> >>> Of
> >>> Jim Felder
> >>> Sent: Monday, December 9, 2013 2:46 PM
> >>> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
> >>> Subject: Re: compressing piston rings in engine
> >>>
> >>> Derek,
> >>>
> >>> I have used a home-made rig like that, but with an inertia puller.
> >>>
> >>> Jim
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 1:37 PM, Derek Burgess <ddb.graphic@gmail.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Tom,
> >>>> Im not suggesting you remove the rods. I know some people say to, but
> >>>> to me, then you have a bearing job better left to when you split the
> >>>> case!
> >>>>
> >>>> Rods still attached.
> >>>> Remove the circlip's that hold the wrist pins.
> >>>> Then remove the wrist pins using a tool like this
> >>>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/nzp43gekwjteg5y/photo.JPG
> >>>>
> >>>> Ignore the fact that the piston/rod are out of the case in this photo,
> >>>> it can be done with them in the case.
> >>>>
> >>>> I've seen it called a piston pin puller, the Bentley actually shows a
> >>>> special VW tool to use, but I have never seen one in the wild- I made
> >>>> the one in my photo from Home Depot parts- It works, I have used it
> twice
> >>> now.
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>> -Derek
> >>>> 1990 GL Automatic "Vikki"
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 2:12 PM, Tom Carchrae <tom@carchrae.net>
> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Thanks Derek, that option has been glaring at me and it is looking
> >>>>> ever more appealing. This route looks pretty straightforward too:
> >>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSBQTkPh_SQ (until you drop the nut)
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Tom
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 10:48 AM, Derek Burgess
> >>>>> <ddb.graphic@gmail.com
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I know this isn't a direct answer to your question: but it's really
> >>>>>> alot easier to pull the pistons, get them into the cylinders on a
> >>>>>> bench and then install the two together. I think pulling circlip's
> >>>>>> and piston pins
> >>>>> much
> >>>>
> >>>>> easier than trying to push a cylinder down over a piston still
> >>>>>> attached
> >>>>> to
> >>>>
> >>>>> the rod. Use rags to clog the cylinder bores, do not want circlips
> >>>>> flying
> >>>>
> >>>>> down into the block.. "would not be funny" -Ben
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> -Derek
> >>>>>> 1990 GL Automatic "Vikki"
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 1:33 PM, Tom Carchrae <tom@carchrae.net>
> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Dear List,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I am trying to get the rings compressed (with pistons attached to
> >>>>>>> rods
> >>>>>> and
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> engine in the car). I am currently in practice mode - using the
> >>>>>>> old
> >>>>>> rings
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> but I am finding, as warned, this is bloody tricky. Not to
> >>>>>>> mention it
> >>>>>> is
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> getting awfully cold outside - my hands nearly froze to the
> >>>>>>> cylinders yesterday (I am now storing them inside).
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Some observations:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> 1) I have a standard blue steel compressor:
> >>>>>>> http://goo.gl/Eapbve(which has now been cut down as slim (width)
> >>>>>>> as possible, thereby removing a
> >>>>>> strip
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> of steel that I could also use with a hose clamp) and it very
> >>>>>>> nearly
> >>>>>> fits
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> (or maybe not) in the tight space between the water jacket and
> >>>>>>> the
> >>>>>> sleeve.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> If you've used one in this scenario, where did you locate the
> >>>>>> compressor
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> ratchet mechanism when doing the last cylinder: top, bottom, side?
> >>>>>> The
> >>>>
> >>>>> bottom seems to nearly work.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> 2) Even if I were to get the standard compressor to fit, how on
> >>>>>>> earth
> >>>>>> will
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I remove it? I would need to unwind it all the way and slide it
> >>>>>>> out I guess? Or unwind it so it fits around the cylinder? I can
> >>>>>>> see being
> >>>>>> able
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> to do that on the first cylinder, but that seems practically
> >>>>>> impossible
> >>>>
> >>>>> on
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> the second one when there is no room. If you've used the
> >>>>>>> compressor
> >>>>>> (hi
> >>>>
> >>>>> Alistair!), which route did you go?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> 3) It seems that the VW specific ring tool ( http://goo.gl/RdkUEp
> >>>>>>> )
> >>>>>> would
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> be much easier to remove (but looks like fun job to get it to
> >>>>>> compress).
> >>>>
> >>>>> Alas, while it ranges from $5-10, it seems to be out of stock in
> >>>>>> Canada
> >>>>
> >>>>> and about $30-40 to ship. Bah. I'm considering making one from
> >>>>>>> the
> >>>>>> steel
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I cut from the compressor.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> 4) I really liked the zip tie then cut idea from Angus Gordon. I
> >>>>>> have a
> >>>>
> >>>>> hose clamp, but tightening it would seem quite difficult. I
> >>>>>>> presume
> >>>>>> that
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> the way you would tighten a hose clamp is by going in the same
> >>>>>>> access
> >>>>>> hole
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> (water pump/pipes holes) when you are doing the last cylinder?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> 5) It seems the sensible order to attach cylinders would be
> >>>>>>> first the
> >>>>>> two
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> on the rear/flywheel side and then follow by front/pulley side.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I am considering dropping the engine, if only so I can (a) get
> >>>>>>> better access, (b) haul the engine inside to be warmer or god
> >>>>>>> forbid (c)
> >>>>>> admit
> >>>>
> >>>>> defeat and take it to a shop who will roll eyes, cluck, and then
> >>>>>> likely
> >>>>
> >>>>> punish me for my arrogance. I guess most VW mechanics are used
> >>>>>>> to
> >>>>>> some
> >>>>
> >>>>> of
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> that.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> As always, thanks in advance for any illumination.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Tom
> >>>>>
>
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