Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 10:49:25 -0800
Reply-To: Scott Daniel <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Scott Daniel <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Organization: Cosmic Reminders
Subject: Re: Gas question, seriously folks
In-Reply-To: <064E9AA5-4E6C-4E93-9E94-ACF77D57A100@gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
well..
thanks for posting this.
I won't comment about how medium-poorly it's written , I expect that.
but I really stopped near the bottom where it says
'always run premium in your vanagon.'
So look.............sure people that are idiots and floor the gas pedal
at mid-rpm on a steep hill with good traction ..such that the engine is
being pushed much harder than it can respond to at that throttle opening
and rpm ..
sure...that's very rough on engines ...idiot drivers are very rough on
equipment often that way.
Some people have just *no Idea* what is going on ..
they push on this pedal ..the picture out the front changes ..so they
must be 'driving'. That is not driving, not in any sensitive or
creative or responsible way.
< the guy I mention below ..was such a totally clueless and
insensstive vanagon driver he ripped the shifter out of the floor
practically ..and I couldn't do that if a gun was held to my head. jeez. >
However..people with half a brain and some sensitivity to equipment
don't do that. ..drive engines so they ping or are overly stressed.
I also must say this ..
no one critiques anyone else's driving style and habits, or not usually .
The extreme worst case I have ever seen in my entire 30 + year
professional career is an old guy with a turbo diesel vanagon ..he
started with a factory 1.6 TD Syncro from the UK, right hand drive
version even..
When he got to me his rebuilt 1.6 TD was puking oil badly, with about
40K miles on it.
we put in a nice strong fairly fresh 1.9 TD AAZ. He's semi-crazy and
clueless anyway. At the time my shop was about 1 foot above sea level in
Sausalito, Ca. At times it was below sea level ..or salt water SF Bay
level, even.
The guy is pouring anti-frz out on the ground ..and we're freaking
out..that's pure poison, it'll go right in the Bay !
Then next he's putting anti-freeze in a plasctic cup from his kitchen.
Wow. Retired UK air force navagator.
Anyway ..get the whole rig together and dialed in and it's really great.
Send him on his way.
A few days later he comes back and says 'it makes a funny noise every
time I shift.'
So I drive it ..it's fine. I say 'you drive it.'
Get this ..he 'short shifts' every gear shift ...like accelerate in a
gear and shift very soon ..like maybe at only 1,800 rpm ...or maybe even
at only 1,500 rpm.
which is ok if you're smart about it, driving gently etc.
But ..
this guy ..short shift, floor it, short shfit, floor it ..he badly
lugged the snot out of his engine *every single shift* of his entire life.
His wife didn't know to say anything. He would shift super early ..then
apply full, full throttle ..ever single shift ..
even driving at 35 mph in town on the level.
There wasn't anyone around to help him know or learn anything different.
Other shops probably never saw him drive ..
he was like 60 yrs old ..he said 'you're telling me I don't know how to
drive.?"
all I could say is ..that's why your other rebuilt engine didn't last.
so ...people ARE , a few of them ....far rougher on their equipment than
they have any idea of.
I won't tell
a very similar story about an 84 yr old that ruined his rebuilt
waterboxer in a year doing the same thing some months ago this year.
Fortuneatly his family took him off driving duties.
All this 'fear' about detonation ..
I sure have never hurt any engine with detonating.
I don't drive them if they ping. It's a super easy adjustment on many
cars anyway.
Waterboxer engines don't seem to ping to me anyway , I am hyper
sensitive to that, and very experienced.
I suppose if I adjust one to 30 degrees advanced at idle it'll ping, but
I've never tried that.
I get really tired of 'fear mongering' about 'if you don't do it this
expensive way you'll blow up your engine for sure.'
that is simply not true.
I will say this though ......An Idiot can blow up their engine ..so
yes..idiot's should use premium fuel and they shouldn't drive a vanagon
anyway.
Parodoxically, vanagons are both not very idiot proof at all..
and amazingly tolerant of abuse and clutziness at the same time.
Sorry folks..I say that is bunk about the premium.
Sure , run mid-grade if you want a tiny bit more smoother operation. I
do sometimes myself.
People shouldn't get out of bed either. Something might happen .
shaking head ..
have a wonderful day everyone !
Scott
On 12/15/2013 7:58 AM, Paul Rogers wrote:
> This is from the GoWesty site. After spending over $3K+, plus countless hours, on my "new to me engine" I follow this philosophy
>
>
> More Sharing ServicesShare|Share on emailShare on facebookShare on twitter
> Gasoline Grade: Which Should I Use in My VW Van?
> Gasoline is rated by its octane level. The higher the octane, the more stable the fuel is, and the less likely it is to prematurely ignite and cause the engine to “knock,” which usually results in a pinging sound. This can lead to catastrophic engine failure in a surprisingly short amount of time, with very little notice. Pre-ignition can occur in a particular engine design for various reasons. For whatever reason it occurs, high octane fuel can prevent it from happening.
>
> Higher performance engines typically have higher compression ratios (CR) and are more susceptible to knocking than lower CR engines. Those of us who grew up in the '60s and '70s are accustomed to this reality, and as a matter of course listened for pinging whenever driving a vehicle with a high performance engine. Pinging occurs only at high power demand (high load). That is, if you are just cruising down the road, rarely if ever using full throttle, and don’t need all of the power the engine is capable of producing—pinging does not occur. "Old-schoolers" like me know when to listen. To this day, on long trips in my Bus or Vanagon, I ALWAYS listen for pinging after each tank fill-up. I simply turn down the radio, roll down the window, and listen. If the engine is going to ping, it will do so on a long grade at above 80% throttle-especially at altitudes uner 3000 feet. If I got a tank of bad gas, I know that for at least that tank of fuel, I gotta keep my foot off of it, and stay below 80% throttle. This happens a lot in Mexico.
>
> In the late 1980s, Bosch came up with a “knock sensor” feature, whereby the engine management system senses knocking and automatically makes adjustments to timing and/or fuel delivery and/or valve timing so the knocking stops. The result is that the engine simply produces less power in exchange for staying in one piece. It is realy no different than what us old-schoolers have been doing all along, except it is done automatically for you by a device that does not have to turn the radio down or roll down the window, or even stop to eat or pee.
>
> Eurovans: Having been designed in the late '80s, all Eurovans are equipped with a knock sensor system. You can run low octane in a Eurovan, and the engine will adjust if knocking occurs. So, it makes no difference what grade fuel you are using—the engine management system will make the necessary adjustment. If you need more power—if you plan on towing, for example— you should buy the higher octane fuel. The bottom line, though, is that neither is likely to hurt the engine.
>
> VW Buses and Vanagons: By contrast, Buses and Vanagons were designed in the '60s and '70s and DO NOT HAVE knock sensing capability. That is, if you decide to use low-grade fuel, or end up with some bad gas by mistake, the engine has no way of adapting to it. The little engine will try to push that big box around with all its might, knocking or not, until it pukes. And unlike the newer Eurovans—with their larger, more sturdy engines—the engine in a Bus or Vanagon is BARELY able to push it down the road even under ideal circumstances. Anyone who has spent any time behind the wheel of one of these vehicles, even one fitted with a GoWesty high performance 2.5 liter engine, finds themselves trying to push the accelerator pedal through the floor without realizing it. So: Always run premium in any Bus or Vanagon, or you will risk destroying the engine. And even with known good fuel, it is a good idea to experiment a little, learn what pinging sounds like, and make changes in your driving habbits as needed to avoid it from happening.
>
> What about the cost? Well, at $3-5 per gallon, what is another twenty cents? A lot less than another engine, that’s for sure.
>
> What about MPG? Don’t you get better MPG with higher octane fuel? Baloney! Don’t believe it! It is just not true. You can run regular in any Eurovan without hurting it and get the same MPG.
>
> What about running hotter? Doesn’t my engine run at a HIGHER temperature with HIGHER octane gasoline? Baloney! Don’t believe it! It is just not true.
