Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 15:59:12 -0600
Reply-To: JRodgers <jrodgers113@GMAIL.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: JRodgers <jrodgers113@GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Distributor Swap and Timing Issues - 88 GL with 2.1WBX
In-Reply-To: <52ADF253.5030603@turbovans.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Scott - the airplane in question - Cessna 195 - was built from 1947
through 1954. I was a 5 passenger, tail-dragger type with cantlever wing
- no wing struts and the engine was a 7 cylinder Jacobs (popular with
the crop-dusting set of the era) Radial engine. HP varied from 245 hp to
330 hp. both of mine we 300 HP. The magneto mounted directly to the rear
case with a gear driving it off of an internal cam. Thee Distributor was
mounter on an accessory drive sticking out the back of the case. That
drive drove two or three other accessories as well beside the
distributor. Take-off power was 300 HP at sea level and full throttle,
turning 2200 rpm. At cruise she turned 1900 rpm with 28 inches of
manifold pressure. Would chuckle along at 165 knots. The engine was know
for what became known among pilots as the "Jacobs Hic-cup!" One could
fly along for hours with no troubles whatsoever - then suddenly the
engine would hic-cup - a funny little miss - and cause the pilot to
become instantly alert and suddenly develop a momentary case of
white-knuckle fever. It would pass and there woudl be no further
trouble. The miss always seemed to occur when over water beyond gliding
distance of land, and at night when there were no lights any where - as
when crossing a mountain range at night.
They were interesting airplanes - and NO - I never want to see one of
these engines even remotely close to a Vanagon.!!!! Our trusty steeds
have their on quirky ways!!
John
On 12/15/2013 12:17 PM, Scott Daniel wrote:
> Hi John,
> that's very interesting.
> So are you suggesting that you will be coming out with a magneto igntion
> system for vanagons ..
> or perhaps dual ignition system ?
>
> I'm pretty aviation-familiar. Have a few genuine flying hours logged in
> my Pilot's log ..
> I've flown over Pike Peak in Colorado in the back seat of an air force
> T-33 jet even.
>
> I'm not familiar with the Cessna 195 or that radial engine,
> and had not heard of an aircraft with dist on one side and mag on the
> other.
>
> There were in the early hot rod days magneto ignition systems for hot
> rod cars I believe.
> And one thing I really apprciate about basic aircraft ..
> say a Cessna 150 ...*everything* is manual control..
> very mechanical ..
> if there's fuel for it ..and the starter and battery work...it'll
> function with almost no electrical systems working.
>
> A diesel vanagon is actually that basic too ...
> if you can get that fuel solenoid on the injection pump energized
> ...like with jumper wires or even flashlight batteries
> or even cut the shut-off pin on it so there's fuel flow to the IP ..,
> you can push start it and other than things like lights and wipers it
> will drive and function just fine ,
> no electronic nuthin'.
>
> Someone should..and maybe has somewhere ..........done a vanagon engine
> coversion using a radial air-cooled engine, mid-mounted.
> That would be way neat !
> My next area of vanagon endeavors might be for the sake of art, rather
> than practicality or better road performance.
> I've got the spare vanagons and welding stuff n' all to do that.
>
> If you saw that outrageous racing mid-engine Syncro on the syncro list
> yesterday ..
> that's what I envision ....a big exposed mid-engine Vanagon ..
> or maybe an airboat vanagon.
>
> Like where art and outrageous vehicles and engines intersect.
> Like Jay Leno's Tank Car ...pure art sculpture that happens to also be
> automotive.
>
> what fun !
> Scott
>
>
> On 12/15/2013 7:55 AM, JRodgers wrote:
>> Scott, thanks for the tips. I didn't know about the holding bracket and
>> the stud with the 13mm nut.
>>
>> BTW - I have the strobe, tach, dwell meter, etc. I'm good there. Just
>> never have messed with the WBX distributor before. With one exception -
>> only time I ever messed with ignition this way was on airplanes that had
>> magnetos - not distributors - and they have an internal spring loaded
>> mechanism to retard the timing for starting and also to generate a spark
>> at the right moment. No external power needed. Smaller aircraft have
>> dual ignition systems for safety and better operations, I have owned two
>> airplanes - Cessna 195's - that had Jacobs 300 hp radial engines in
>> them. They had magnetos on one side and distributors on the other. I
>> started the engine on the distributor and after start - turned on the
>> magneto so there would be dual ignition. Starting on the distributor was
>> so easy. And that distributor looked and operated just like any
>> automotive distributor except the distributor cap had 7 spark plug wires.
>>
>> John
>>
>> On 12/15/2013 2:06 AM, Scott Daniel wrote:
>>> if you can unbolt the dist holder bracket from the block ..
>>> 13mm hex nut on a stud there ...then timing adjustment will be kept .
>>>
>>> on a 1.9 you can't do that as the distributor has to be rotated some to
>>> clear things ..then lift it up and out.
>>> I think on a 2.1 you can do the above trick.
>>>
>>> I would not get very worried about the exact timing.
>>> do yo have a timing strobe light ? You should..they have other uses
>>> besides just reading the dynamic timing while the engine is running .
>>> Very handy tool .......a 'must have.'
>>> they start at around 30 bucks ....just any basic inductive timing light
>>> will do.
>>>
>>> they can be used to find misfiring cylinders..even slipping accessory
>>> belts ..
>>> or intermittent ignition. A 'must have.'
>>>
>>> then ...sure, Bentley says to do this or that ...
>>> but really ..if you get it idling at around TDC or a barely a bit
>>> advanced over that ...it'll be fine.
>>> Avoid the temptation to make the idle really nice n' smooth by advancing
>>> the basic timing too far ..
>>> if you do that ..it'll be too advanced at high rpm which can cause
>>> serious damage over time.
>>> She just about any shop manual for pics of detonated pistons.
>>>
>>> of course ...if it ever pings ...and you can lug it hard on purpose as a
>>> test...you should never hear pinging ..that means too advanced timing
>>> ..or sometimes not high enough octane fuel, but these engines run on
>>> unleaded regular just fine.
>>> they are a tiny bit smoother on mid-grade gasoline.
>>> I usually just run unleaded regular.
>>>
>>> I share this ..I don't expect anyone to really jump on this ..but
>>> believe me this works like a charm on any engine where you can adjust
>>> the timing by turning the distributor.
>>> Engine warmed up and idling decently.
>>> Rotate dist the opposte way the rotor turns ..that advances timing
>>> ..advance the timing noting it idling faster and faster ..
>>> when idle speed no longer increases with turning the dist ..that's WAY
>>> advanced...like 40 to 50 degrees..
>>>
>>> then next .turn it the same way the rotor turns, that retards it ..
>>> retard it until it nearly dies.
>>> Find the too extremes ...too advanced and too retarded.
>>> put the dist right in the middle of those two extremes.
>>> This works amazingly well on many cars.
>>> but don't try it at home...it's only for extra clever 'out of the box'
>>> type thinkers.
>>>
>>> on a waterboxer ..no need to be too nervous ...they are fairly
>>> forgiving .
>>> Worst thing would be too advanced timing for a long time.
>>> with a timing light you can tell where the timing is at idle ..
>>> around 0 to 5 degrees advanced is about right.
>>>
>>> this from having timed about a thousand waterboxer engines over the
>>> years.
>>>
>>> Scott
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 12/14/2013 9:10 PM, JRodgers wrote:
>>>> Kinda groping in the blind here and have a couple of questions. Hope
>>>> someone can explain.
>>>>
>>>> I need to swap a dead distributor for a live one - and I want to be
>>>> sure
>>>> the timing is right when I do it. As I understand, the engine should be
>>>> turned by hand to the point where the 2nd timing mark is at top - ie
>>>> the
>>>> split in the case - which would be top dead center. This should bring
>>>> the rotor finger center line in line with a mark on the distributor
>>>> housing.
>>>>
>>>> For the engine from which I am pulling a known good distributor - I
>>>> follow the same procedure. 2nd pulley mark at the split - distributor
>>>> finger should be at the distributor housing mark. That being the case -
>>>> the swap should be straight across - and any timing variances should be
>>>> minor, requiring only a little tweaking - maybe.
>>>>
>>>> Have I got this right? Or am I missing something? The real issue is a
>>>> dead hall sensor and given what I have on hand - this is the quickest
>>>> way to getting my rig back up and running. I'll deal with a new Hall
>>>> sensor later.
>>>>
>>>> As always, all input is appreciated.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>
>>>> John
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
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