Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2014 12:52:35 -0600
Reply-To: Jim Felder <jim.felder@GMAIL.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Jim Felder <jim.felder@GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Volksiebus - 88 Transporter - Rough Running Engine
In-Reply-To: <52DABF4A.4060302@gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Triumph (Ferguson Tractor) had a long running stint of sleeved engines, as
did Renault in the Dauphine and others. The Triumph engine was bulletproof,
not so the Renault. The block was so thin that it would crack under the
slightest provocation. I will say that they were mighty easy to overhaul,
both of them, in that the only reason to remove the engine from the block
was to get at the rear seal or the transmission, which was often enough in
itself. At least the Triumph had a cover over the transmission which could
be removed and you could get to almost all the fasteners while seated in
the passenger seat.
Vanagons are not all that different. For all the leaky head gasket
problems, etc, IF the parts are not frozen together, the concept of the
Vanagon's individual sleeves have kept me from pulling the "block" a number
or times, though in practice I usually wished I had at some point in the
project. Nothing like the aircooled days.
Jim
On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 11:52 AM, JRodgers <jrodgers113@gmail.com> wrote:
> Interesting about these engine designs. Not to terribly familiar with
> automotive engines but have seen a few. I know big diesels are sleeved
> and can be overhauled in the field if need be. Ford back in the 40's
> designed an engine with sleeves. Then someone said "Hey - if we build
> them his way - we won't sell any engines - just sleeves and a few
> parts!" Ford dropped the engine pretty quickly. In the way of aircraft
> engines - which I am more familiar with - there were many variations.
> Most common were the air cooled models, though in earlier years there
> ere water cooled models - but the weight penalty was high for so little
> horsepower of that era. And early aircooled model was the Le Rhone
> radial engine from France. The crankshaft mounted rigidly to the
> airframe and the engine block turned around the crankshaft. The
> propeller was mounted to the engine block. It was not very successful.
> Can you imagine what handling that much rotating mass must have been
> like?? The flat four VW engine is most like the modern piston aircraft
> engine. In fact, many small homebuilt aircraft used the VW engine as
> it's powerplant. Air-cooled aircraft engines (most common types) both
> radial and flat types -use a a steel cylinder barrel that is screwed to
> an aluminum cylinder head. that houses the valves and the spark plugs.
> That steel barrel is bolted to the engine crankcase - usually aluminum -
> but sometimes magnesium. This makes it possible to change out a cylinder
> in the field without having to pull the engine from the aircraft. A
> cylinder change also means a valve change as well. Much better
> arrangement than what is on the aircooled VW's or Vanagons WBX.
> Once the steel barrel and the aluminum head are screwed together at the
> factory they are never separated again.
>
> John
>
> On 1/18/2014 10:58 AM, Dennis Haynes wrote:
>
>> The C7 is a baby Diesel. Used to be known as the 3126. 7.2 liter. RV trim
>> for 2004 was 350hp @ 2400 rpm 860 ft lbs @ 1400 rpm. This was Cats smallest
>> on road engine and the only one with parent bore block. Everything else has
>> sleeves and can be overhauled in frame.
>>
>> Dennis,
>>
>>> From my phone.
>>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: Steve Cotsford<mailto:cotsford@AOL.COM>
>> Sent: 1/18/2014 11:30 AM
>> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM<mailto:vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
>> Subject: Re: Volksiebus - 88 Transporter - Rough Running Engine
>>
>> I guess I was in "Vanagon" mode :-) I designed Railroad track
>> renewal machinery for about 40 years so I am familiar with large engines
>> and oil capacities but somehow I didn't switch modes. Steve
>>
>> On Jan 18, 2014, at 11:19 AM, Dennis Haynes <d23haynes57@HOTMAIL.COM>
>> wrote:
>>
>> The Cat C7 engine in my RV takes 20 quarts plus the filters. Many truck
>>> engines take 44 or even more.
>>>
>>> Dennis,
>>> From my phone.
>>> From: Steve Cotsford
>>> Sent: 1/18/2014 10:50 AM
>>> To: Dennis Haynes
>>> Cc: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
>>> Subject: Re: Volksiebus - 88 Transporter - Rough Running Engine
>>>
>>> 5 gallons of oil in your engine ?? I know the US gallon tends to be
>>> smaller than the Imperial gallon but not that much smaller. I feel sure
>>> you meant to say quarts LOL :-) Steve
>>>
>>> On Jan 18, 2014, at 10:04 AM, Dennis Haynes <d23haynes57@HOTMAIL.COM>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Every now and then I get a chuckle thinking back to the days when many
>>>> now
>>>> experts couldn't recognize or spell Vanagon. If there is one fault with
>>>> the
>>>> auto repair industry it is the number of folks that learned strictly on
>>>> the
>>>> job with very little in the way available to test or certify
>>>> technicians. It
>>>> is not just Vanagon owners that have trouble getting "competent" work
>>>> performed. When I bought my motor home back in 2004 it took almost a
>>>> year to
>>>> get reliable headlights. I replaced the headlight switch myself. I had
>>>> the
>>>> dealer do the first valve adjustment. Ended up with a leaking valve
>>>> cover
>>>> gasket and that was a $400 plus job. Had dealer in Florida do an oil
>>>> change
>>>> once. They tried to charge me 11 gallons of Mobil Delvac 1. My engine
>>>> only
>>>> takes 5. Had a customer bring me a Toyota with a "pinging" problem.
>>>> Another
>>>> shop replaced the head. Turned out it wasn't ping but piston slap.
>>>> Common
>>>> problem on these engines. Guy paid $3k for the head job and still really
>>>> needed an engine. That was a fun court event. That shop ended up paying
>>>> me
>>>> to replace the engine. The fun goes on.
>>>>
>>>> When things go wrong many want the quick fix. Adjustments never fix
>>>> anything. All changes in operation revolve around something failing. As
>>>> these vans are getting old we have to include the wiring as a common
>>>> problem. But symptoms should always be diagnosed. Don't just "clean the
>>>> grounds". Which ground? Is it the wire or the connector? Is where a
>>>> bunch of
>>>> connectors are tied together? Find the problem, then fix. Don't just
>>>> unplug
>>>> the O2 sensor. What does it do? When is it looked at? You won't fix a no
>>>> start with that one. If the input lead is shorted you won't know until
>>>> you
>>>> get the meter. In 25+ years and 150+ Vanagons I've changed 2 air flow
>>>> meters. Both were opened and tampered with. They really don't go bad.
>>>> Even
>>>> if worn they really do so little the engine controls compensate if the
>>>> O2
>>>> system is working.
>>>>
>>>> The vanagon engine control system really is an easy one. Just a few
>>>> quirks
>>>> with the O2 sensor but overall it works very well. Most often running
>>>> problems turn out to be something past the controls. Bad valves, worn
>>>> guides, rings, etc. will make more grief then the controls.
>>>>
>>>> Dennis
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On
>>>> Behalf Of
>>>> Jim Felder
>>>> Sent: Friday, January 17, 2014 7:12 PM
>>>> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
>>>> Subject: Re: Volksiebus - 88 Transporter - Rough Running Engine
>>>>
>>>> Dennis, are you saying he ISN'T???
>>>>
>>>> LOL I know I am! We have a great shop in town and they call me! Happened
>>>> today.
>>>>
>>>> Jim
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 5:11 PM, Dennis Haynes
>>>> <d23haynes57@hotmail.com>wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Some of us are just waiting for you to go into the Vanagon repair
>>>>>
>>>> business!
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Dennis
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On
>>>>> Behalf Of Steve Cotsford
>>>>> Sent: Friday, January 17, 2014 1:17 PM
>>>>> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
>>>>> Subject: Re: Volksiebus - 88 Transporter - Rough Running Engine
>>>>>
>>>>> Seems like I can be amusing to some :-) Glad to be of service LOL
>>>>>
>>>> Enjoy
>>>>
>>>>> it while it lasts ;-) Steve
>>>>>
>>>>> On Jan 17, 2014, at 12:29 PM, Stuart MacMillan <stuartmacm@GMAIL.COM>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> No end of challenging problems between you and Steve Cotsford and
>>>>>> his Bluestar! The list would be boring without you.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is this the one you've replaced the distributor on? Revisit that
>>>>>> first, wires second, injectors third. Stumbling under load is
>>>>>> usually a spark or fuel problem. I just had a similar problem and
>>>>>> the coil secondary wire was badly corroded at the coil. Clean and
>>>>>> spray them all
>>>>>>
>>>>> with a little WD-40.
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Stuart
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On
>>>>>> Behalf Of JRodgers
>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, January 16, 2014 7:23 PM
>>>>>> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
>>>>>> Subject: Volksiebus - 88 Transporter - Rough Running Engine
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Rough engine - the latest pita I'm having to deal with on a string
>>>>>> of
>>>>>>
>>>>> many!!
>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm on a roll!!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ok - hot or cold - engine starts and idles well.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Conditions - ISV disconnected due to Idle issues
>>>>>> O2 Sensor Disconnected to put ECU in default mode.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cold engine: starts easily, idles easily, but upon attempted
>>>>>> acceleration it bucks, kicks, snorts, hiccups, coughs - finally
>>>>>> smoothing
>>>>>>
>>>>> out at speed.
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Warm engine: starts easily, idles easily, but upon attempted
>>>>>> acceleration it bucks, kicks, snorts, hiccups, coughs - finally
>>>>>> smoothing
>>>>>>
>>>>> out at speed.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Only the bucking isn't quite so bad. Occurs mostly on the initial
>>>>>> acceleration after idling successful.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Suspicion: Throttle body switches out of limits and need adjusting.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Anyone have any ideas about this?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> John
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> .
>>
>>
| 
