Vanagon EuroVan
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Date:         Mon, 17 Feb 2014 10:56:57 -0800
Reply-To:     mark drillock <mdrillock@COX.NET>
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From:         mark drillock <mdrillock@COX.NET>
Subject:      Re: Starting system quirk - diagnosis help needed
In-Reply-To:  <TUYf1n01S08X5Fr01UYk3G>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed

The auto trans models with factory cruise control have an extra relay not found on other vans. That relay interferes with the added hard start relay like the Westy fridge relay can and the aux battery relay can. Those other relays can be easily wired to still work but not so with the cruise_control_auto_trans_relay. All 3 relays use the starter motor solenoid coil as their ground and you can switch the fridge or battery relay to just use a normal ground. It is a possible safety issue for the cruise control system so any such modifications to the factory cruise control wiring should be considered a risk.

Mark

Miguel Pacheco wrote: > Craig, I believe that starter no-disengage issue was on vans equipped with > the refrigerator relay under the driver's seat. I believe it was Dennis > Haynes or Mark Drillock who schooled me on the solution, although this > happened to my manual transmission van. It was as simple as moving a ground > on that relay, although I forget the details. It did solve that issue > though. > Good call on the grounds. A bad transmission to chassis ground will > definitely prevent the starter from engaging. > As far as that automatic transmission neutral safety switch, I need to > check that out. I have an auto, but have never had any trouble with it. > > Miguel > > > > > On Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 6:51 AM, Craig Cowan <phishman068@gmail.com> wrote: > >> A few things I have learned from having exactly the same problem on a few >> late model automatic vans.... >> It's probably your grounds! Clean the ground at the batter terminal and >> where the ground strap attaches to the body, and add a new thick ground >> strap from the starter nut to the frame. >> Check and clean your neutral safety switch, in an automatic all the power >> strangely has to go through a little switch in the shift column known to >> fail. >> Lastly, a hard start relay kit is a good move, unless you have a 90/91 >> model automatic van with cruise control. For whatever reason those, you >> can't install a relay kit in ( it won't disengage the starter, last I heard >> jay brown was looking into it but still hadn't figured it out). >> >> I do not proactively replace ignition switches, as I find the bulk of >> those available today to have a very high failure rate. >> >> -craig >> >>> On Feb 17, 2014, at 7:31 AM, Larry Alofs <lalofs@GMAIL.COM> wrote: >>> >>> It takes significant current to activate the starter solenoid, especially >>> as it ages. This is rough on the contacts in the ignition switch. >>> Replacing the switch and cleaning or replacing the starter and/or >> solenoid >>> may solve the problem. Regardless, the system is under-engineered and >>> failure prone. Many more modern vehicles (including Eurovans from VW) >> use >>> a relay between the switch and the solenoid. >>> Some of our on-line vendors sell a "hard start relay" kit to address >> this >>> problem on Vanagons. >>> >>> Larry A. >>> >>> >>> >>>> On Sun, Feb 16, 2014 at 9:23 AM, David <okdavid5555@cox.net> wrote: >>>> >>>> Thank you, list members, for all the advice about my quirky starter. >> Looks >>>> like replacing the ignition switch is my first priority, and then maybe >>>> repair or replace the starter. I appreciate all the suggestions and >> help >>>> very much! >>>> >>>> David S. >>>> Oklahoma City >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On >> Behalf Of >>>> David >>>> Sent: Saturday, February 15, 2014 3:20 PM >>>> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM >>>> Subject: Starting system quirk - diagnosis help needed >>>> >>>> Hello Vanagon listers. I've been a list member for quite a while, but >> have >>>> contributed infrequently, only when I think I might be able to actually >> add >>>> something worthwhile to a discussion. I've never asked a question about >> my >>>> own Vanagon, but now I'd appreciate some help. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I've got a stock '91 Carat, automatic trans, with 145K miles (60K put >> on by >>>> me). I've experienced this issue a number of times over the past six >> months >>>> or so, and it was never a problem until about a month ago when I >> thought it >>>> was going to strand me. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Here's the symptom: When turning the ignition key to the "start" >> position, >>>> every once in a while, there is a very brief period of nothing >> happening, >>>> ranging from a split-second to maybe a half-second. Continuing to hold >> the >>>> key in the start position, the starter kicks in and the engine starts as >>>> normal. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I emphasize that this happens infrequently, and when it does, the >> period of >>>> time before the starter kicks in is usually almost imperceptible, but >> it's >>>> enough of a delay that you're aware of it happening. There does not >> appear >>>> to be a correlation between outside air temp or whether the engine is >> warm >>>> or cold. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> About a month ago, when I was 100 miles from home, I turned the key to >> the >>>> start position and nothing happened. Nothing. The usual dash warning >> lights >>>> lit up when the switch passed through the "run" position, and when in >> the >>>> start position, nothing happened. There was no dimming of the warning >>>> lights; no sound (like a click, for instance) at all. No indication >> that a >>>> load was being placed on the electrical system. The no-sound and >>>> no-light-dimming seemed very odd to me. I repeated the >>>> turn-off-try-to-start-again sequence several times, which yielded no >>>> change. >>>> Then I got the idea that maybe the neutral safety switch was the >> problem, >>>> so >>>> I moved the gear selector from "P" to "N" and tried again - several >> times - >>>> with the same result. I even rapidly moved the gear selector back and >> forth >>>> from "P" to "1" several times, thinking I would "clear" or shake loose >> (?) >>>> the contact mechanism. This resulted in no change when trying to start >> in >>>> either "P" and "N." >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Frustrated, I got out of the van and walked around it in dismay. I even >>>> looked on the ground under the engine - as if I'd find some part had >>>> dropped >>>> on the ground or was hanging loose (isn't looking at and underneath the >>>> engine what we're "supposed to do" when something's wrong? J ) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> After about 10 minutes of being thoroughly upset and confused, I crawled >>>> back in the driver's seat figuring I was going to have to call a >> wrecker. I >>>> decided to give it one last try before grabbing the cell phone, and to >> my >>>> amazement, it started right up, without any perceived delay. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> It has started perfectly since then, however, the infrequent, very brief >>>> delay episodes have continued. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I would appreciate any advice on diagnosing where the problem may lay. >>>> Thank you. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> David S. >>>> >>>> Oklahoma City >>>> >> >


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