Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2014 10:38:15 +0000
Reply-To: J Stewart <fonman4277@COMCAST.NET>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: J Stewart <fonman4277@COMCAST.NET>
Subject: Re: Vanagon Head Leaking Around The Head Nut(S)
In-Reply-To: <BAY407-EAS151547D71C3171EEAAC3FC8A0510@phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Hi Dennis (and List), Poor choice f words, I guess! I had a somewhat bad weekend with my Vanagon. After replacing the head gasket and feeling like I was successful, it all unraveled this weekend. To top it all off, after leaving Everybus I stopped for gas. As I was leaving the gas station I remembered my receipt was hanging from the gas pump and I swung around to grab it and hit one of the protective posts at the island. Just a bad day. The head needs to be replaced. I didn't understand (my problem) going in just how risky it is to reuse a VW head. In addition to the coolant leak, the front exhaust studs snapped off on the this head when I bought the van 4 years ago. At that time I drilled them out and used inserts to install the new exhaust. Despite using new inserts, material has cracked and fallen off around the exhaust port and I tried fixing that with JB Weld. It didn't work, and I now have a massive exhaust leak. This head is done!! I guess I was just having a pity party for myself. While I love VW's and the whole VW scene, spare time is far and few between and there are times I just don't feel like playing mechanic, but I understand thats a part of Vanagon ownership (it was for Bays & Beetles too). I've struggles with the decision to keep the Vanagon or the Ford camper I bought months ago with the intent to flip. My mistake was using the Ford on a couple of trips and really liking it. But that is a personal decision I have to make. The Vanagon has to be fixed, even if I decided to get rid of it it is way too nice to part out, and it is worth little in it's present condition. Jeff Stewart ----- Original Message -----
> The issue is not that we don’t want to hear you cry, you're just too
> far away for many of us to really help. What you need to do is to
> determine of that leak on the outside of the head explains the loss of
> coolant. Is it a small or large leak? The head may have been cracked
> all along. If it is a small leak, try resealing the one nut. If small
> some cooling system stop leak may also do the job. If you are getting
> combustion gasses into the cooling system or these is a leak in the
> exhaust ports of the head than this small leak is not an issue. If it
> is a large leak than you have to look for the head crack or check the
> torque to make sure the assembly is still tight. This is how failed
> studs can rear there ugly head. If the nut loosened you may be able to
> tighten it up but beware the snap is coming. There are some vendors
> that offer rebuilt heads. Done properly they can offer many miles of
> service at reduced cost. I check and repair them frequently. Even the
> best of new heads are only good for one or two major overheating
> events so what they hey? I've done a number of top end overhauls of
> 160-180 k engines and some have gone another 80 to 100K. Just do the
> investigation and determine the plan. With everything new and fresh
> you can swap that one head in no time. This is one reason I like to
> use bolts instead of studs on the exhaust ports. With bolts when doing
> one head leave the exhaust in place. Remove the bolts and slide the
> head right out.
> Dennis
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On
> Behalf Of J Stewart
> Sent: Monday, April 14, 2014 7:29 AM
> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
> Subject: Re: Vanagon Head Leaking Around The Head Nut(S)
> Everything was pretty clean, I coated the stud threads with a light
> coating of Permatex Anti-Seize. I torqued the heads to 40 ft. lbs per
> Ken Wilford's head gasket video. I took the time to do everything the
> best I could, and the fact that it runs so well (it really does,
> cruised home yesterday from Everybus @ 65 mph) tells me I didn't screw
> up too badly, if the head cracked, well, that was "circumstances
> beyond my control". I'm sure no one here wants to listen to me cry,
> but this is bad news for this Vanagon for a variety of reasons: 1)
> limited finances, I can't afford to pay someone to do the work, so I
> am my own mechanic. I've priced new heads, we are talking $1,300.00
> and I can't see dropping that kind of money into a wasserboxer with
> 165k miles. Used heads? Out of the question IMHO, as used may just end
> up cracking too. 2) Even more limited than the finances is time. I
> work a full time, 40 hour plus work week as a telecom tech and with
> commuting I usually have a 12 hour day-don't usually feel like walking
> in the door and running right back out to the garage and working on
> the Vanagon for another 2-3 hours (but I have). Weekend comes and I
> have other stuff to do, yard/house work, riding my motorcycle, etc. 3)
> I'm supposed to be getting my house ready to sell due to a pending
> divorce, plus the house is the main reason for the $$ being so
> limited. But, no house, no place to work on the van, and I don't know
> when/if I'll be in another place that I can work on it. I have the '83
> diesel carrier bars, oil pan, etc to do an inline VW conversion and
> now seems like the logical time to start it, but with #3 looming I
> don't know about the timeline, plus I still need to find an ABA
> engine. Then, to top it all off, I have the Ford Turtle Top camper,
> which DOESN'T have cracked heads, has plenty of power and comforts and
> just took me & my daughter to Florida and back (2,000 miles) with NO
> issues. I dunno, I got a lot of tough decisions to make! Jeff Jeff
> Stewart ----- Original Message -----
> > I would agree with emphasis on making sure the nuts and stud threads
> > are working smoothly.
> > this kind of detail attention to workmanship pays off , for sure.
> > I lube the stud threads with a synthetic spray lube ..
> > I make sure the nut is not full of sealant ...
> > I just put a good amount of yellow stuff around the flat surface.
> > I torque 'em to 37 ft lbs.
> > 'more' is not better in this situation.
> > it's really mickey mouse in a way ...you are asking the heads to
> > seal
> > against the metal sealing rings..
> > a very old air-cooled VW design..
> > dating from the 40's even.
> > it's amazing it works as well as it does.
> > NO other manufacturer tries to get away with this system ..ever,
> > anywhere , at all.
> > be thankful it works at all.
> > I generally have fine luck with them..
> > I can't emphasize meticulous workmanship enough. .
> > everything has to be clean and smooth-turning.
> > and then some.
> > the studs do twist ..
> > it's nerve wracking.
> > that's why things being smooth-turning is so important.
> > re the comments about re-sealing one nut.
> > drain the coolant of course ~!
> > these things need all the help they can get ~ !
> > wasser-puker ...lol ~!
> > On 4/13/2014 3:46 PM, Dennis Haynes wrote:
> > > Nuts in critical applications are not re-usable. For our head nuts
> > > at minimum they need to have the threads chased or tapped to make
> > > sure they are not distorted and cleaned. Then for assembly, the
> > > threads on the stud need to be lubed and the sealant only goes on
> > > the flange. If the stud is twisting and springing back as you
> > > approach final torque you will not get a good result. The stud is
> > > weak or you still have excess friction on that thread.
> > >
> > > Dennis
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On
> > > Behalf Of J Stewart
> > > Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2014 8:03 PM
> > > To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
> > > Subject: Re: Vanagon Head Leaking Around The Head Nut(S)
> > >
> > > Thanks, Mark. I think I threw away what was left in the tube of
> > > yellow stuff, would Right Stuff work as well? Thanks, Jeff Jeff
> > > Stewart ----- Original Message -----
> > >> I would just remove the suspect nut and put fresh yellow stuff on
> > >> it and torque it back into place. Make sure the inside of the nut
> > >> is as clean and dry as possible before you put it back.
> > >> If they are VW wbx heads then there is a common crack area that
> > >> often appears to be one of the upper nuts when it is really a
> > >> crack
> > >> very close by to it.
> > >> Mark
> > >> J Stewart wrote:
> > >>> OK I've posted some of this story on Facebook, just got back
> > >>> from
> > >>> Everybus. Condensed version: replaced right side head gasket two
> > >>> weeks ago. Put about 150 miles on the van before leaving Friday
> > >>> for Everybus, no problems (well couple of minor ones). 170 miles
> > >>> into the trip Friday coolant light starts blinking. Pull over,
> > >>> let
> > >>> it cool, top it off and hit the road. 10 miles later blinking
> > >>> again.
> > >>> Do
> > >>> the same. Repeat 3 more times but get to Everybus. Every time I
> > >>> stopped, nothing dripping from the van, engine is dry. Folks are
> > >>> telling me I didn't burp it. I'm skeptical. Today coming home it
> > >>> was low about every 100 miles, light would come on, but now I'm
> > >>> seeing drips from the right side. It "APPEARS", very hard to
> > >>> tell,
> > >>> but it appears to be leaking around one of the upper cylinder
> > >>> head
> > >>> nuts (torqued to 40lbs and I used the yellow goop) With the AFM,
> > >>> air filter, hoses, etc. it is hard to see, but that is what it
> > >>> is
> > >>> looking like. Is it customary to retorque the heads after xxx
> > >>> miles?
> > >>> Long
> > >> ing for an inline 4, Suby, Zetec, just about anything else
> > >> besides
> > >> this waterboxer!! Jeff
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> Jeff Stewart
> > >>>
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