Date:         Wed, 11 Jun 2014 08:41:42 -0600
Reply-To:     Gnarlodious <gnarlodious@GMAIL.COM>
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From:         Gnarlodious <gnarlodious@GMAIL.COM>
Subject:      Re: I rather drive the Vanagon
In-Reply-To:  <20140611102459.653Y9.350333.imail@eastrmwml301>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

I hate to be the one to say this but I think it is mostly a matter of
technique. A smooth gentle torque gets you maximum friction whereas
spinning your tires mindlessly ruins your traction for good.

I see this all the time with people stuck on packed snow, mud/clay or sand.
They tromp on the pedal and get lots of spinning but no traction. Once you
get that surface glazed your tires are just sliding on a tiny surface.
Horsepower is the enemy of traction.

As usual, to comes down to the laws of physics. Like I said, I have never
gotten stuck. My towing loops have never been used, except to pull others
out.

-- Gnarlie




On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 8:24 AM, Dave Mcneely <mcneely4@cox.net> wrote:

> For what it's worth, I haven't had a problem -- I have been stuck with my
> camper one time.  That was on slick, wet clay road, not deep mud, but I was
> able to extricate myself ok by using the driving tricks my father taught me
> 55 years ago.   I do drive into the back in it with my (2WD) Volkswagen
> Vanagon GL Campmobile with 2.1 engine and 4 speed manual transmission. The
> tires are Kumho 857s, which are NOT trailer tires, being sold the world
> over by Kumho as "van and transporter tires."  Oh, Scott, it is tan.  Sand,
> mud, and very rocky roads have not been a problem for me with the vehicle.
>  Of course, what do I know?  mcneely
>
> ---- Don Hanson <dhanson928@GMAIL.COM> wrote:
> >   All Westies except the beetle....hmmm...maybe I should put in the rear
> > closet and the second story balcony into my tin top...
> >
> >    On not making it over rocks....I do ok with that on my stock 14" steel
> > wheels, as long as I keep up a good pace and don't stop on anything
> > slippery when pointed uphill...or anything deep and soft on the level...
>  I
> > can drive around the lack of traction but I have to be more careful than
> in
> > most other vehicles I have owned....
> >
> > A Vanagon should not be called "ok for traction" when it's often spinning
> > it's wheels on wet grass lawns that are very slightly uphill, right?
> > Worse in reverse, but even in my almost compound low first gear 5sp and
> > super careful clutch modulation, unless I have ballast in the way
> back...it
> > is likely to just sit there with one wheel turning..    My uphill
> driveway
> > in the snow is as exciting to try to negotiate as a lap of Willow Springs
> > racetrack was in my Porsche race car....You gotta balance speed with
> > control and catch the rear end all the way up while feathering the
> throttle
> > and trying to conserve as much speed as possible....I often crest at
> about
> > 1mph with the revs going up and down as I try to re-gain traction...
> >
> >   I too have had lots of Volkswagens and most were outstanding for
> > traction...not the vanagon.
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Jun 10, 2014 at 6:55 PM, OlRivrRat <OlRivrRat@comcast.net>
> wrote:
> >
> > >         I find this conversation to be quite interesting ~ I have only
> had
> > > 4 RearEng' Vehicles in my 54Yrs of driving ~ a 73SuperBeatle ~ a
> 76Westy ~
> > > an 83.5Westy ~ a 90Westy ~ All were 2(1)wd & I can Honestly say that I
> > > never ever felt like they were TractionChallenged & I took all 4 of
> those
> > > Vehicles to many places in NM, CO, UT that a lot of folks would not
> even
> > > dream any StreetVehicle could go ~ I did always run BFG
> AllTerrainRadial
> > > 27x8.50 14s on the Rear of the 76 & 83.5 Westys & up until a Couple of
> Yrs
> > > ago the 90 wore CooperBuilt Dominator 235/75r15 on the Rear~
> > >
> > >
> > >                       ORR ~ DeanB
> > >
> > > On 10 Jun , 2014, at 6:47 PM, Vanagon wrote:
> > >
> > > > "You would be hard pressed though to find another vehicle with these
> > > weight characteristics to have a 185 width tire that is then inflated
> to a
> > > point of limited contact patch."
> > > >
> > > > When I told my son about the rough time my van had when pulling up a
> > > fairly rough and steep dirt/rubble road a couple weeks ago - with
> trailer
> > > filled with camping gear in tow, he, who four-wheels with friends and
> > > drives a Jeep Cherokee with mighty burly tires, said, "yeah, those
> little
> > > tires probably have a hard time climbing over even small rocks."
> > > >
> > > > Kind of like trying to ride over a garden hose on a skateboard.
> > > >
> > > > Sent from my 1963 aqua 702B Western Electric Princess phone.
> > > >
> > > >> On Jun 9, 2014, at 10:25 PM, Dennis Haynes <d23haynes57@HOTMAIL.COM
> >
> > > wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> Many rear wheel drive vehicles have more weight up front than at the
> > > rear and the vanagon is not always front heavy. You would be hard
> pressed
> > > though to find another vehicle with these weight characteristics to
> have a
> > > 185 width tire that is then inflated to a point of limited contact
> patch.
> > > >>
> > > >> Dennis
> > > >>
> > > >> -----Original Message-----
> > > >> From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On
> > > Behalf Of SDF ( aka ;jim lahey' - Scott )
> > > >> Sent: Monday, June 9, 2014 2:35 AM
> > > >> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
> > > >> Subject: Re: I rather drive the Vanagon
> > > >>
> > > >> look up the weight distribution for a 2WD vanagon ..
> > > >> oddly, amazingly ..their is more weight on the front axle than on
> the
> > > rear ( drive ) axle !!
> > > >>
> > > >> which why they are traction-challenged.
> > > >>> On 6/8/2014 3:18 PM, Dennis Haynes wrote:
> > > >>> While the Hakka's are very good tire quality wise and that tire has
> > > some winter capability you simply will not get much traction on a
> 185/80
> > > tire inflated to 50 psi or more. If you want to make any improvements
> you
> > > need to begin where the rubber meets the road.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Dennis
> > > >>>
> > > >>> -----Original Message-----
> > > >>> From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On
> > > >>> Behalf Of Don Hanson
> > > >>> Sent: Saturday, June 7, 2014 11:36 PM
> > > >>> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
> > > >>> Subject: Re: I rather drive the Vanagon
> > > >>>
> > > >>> You haven't tried enough.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>  Well, nice discussion but it doesn't alter the way 2wd Vanagons
> > > normally
> > > >>> behave.   They just are not as good, traction-wise, as many other
> > > >>> vehicles.. On a scale of 1 to 10 I would rate mine about a
> 3..maybe a
> > > two.
> > > >>>  I had a long bed 2wd ford pickup that was awful in snow...I'd give
> > > >>> that a
> > > >>> 3 maybe 4..... Oh, I've made lots of improvements trying to make
> mine
> > > go better but it still gets stuck without much effort, if you are not
> > > really careful about how you ask it to move....  If I park on any kind
> of
> > > slick or soft surface that has any slope...I better park headed
> downhill,
> > > or I am
> > > >>> stuck.   If I stop in sand...stuck.   If I have the front wheels
> > > turned in
> > > >>> sand and try to move...stuck.   If it snows while I am away from my
> > > >>> house....I am stuck at the bottom of my driveway...
> > > >>>
> > > >>>  This is with brand new Nokian Hakkapellita mud and snows on the
> rear,
> > > the suspension reworked and the van corner balanced and many years of
> snow
> > > and sand driving experience...They just plain don't work that well..You
> > > *can* drive around this crummy traction, most of the time, but I think
> it
> > > is one of the few things my Vanagon does badly....
> > > >>>
> > > >>>   Yes, a limited slip diff would be a huge improvement...Or better
> > > yet, a full locker for when you need it...
> > > >>>
> > > >>>   I think it is partly due to the rear suspension not being
> > > particularly supple or having very much travel...It doesn't take much
> to
> > > get a wheel completely off the ground at the rear...there is little
> "droop"
> > > in the Vanagon...Droop being the amount a suspension will hang down
> when
> > > the vehicle is lifted....
> > > >>>
> > > >>>   When it begins to snow and sleet around here I have to load at
> least
> > > a few hundred lbs onto the rear deck lid to keep driving my vanagon
> without
> > > being constantly stuck...that's not very convenient nor safe and it is
> a
> > > real pain when you need to access the engine..
> > > >>>
> > >
>
> --
> David McNeely
>