Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2014 09:57:39 -1000
Reply-To: "SDF ( aka ;jim lahey' - Scott )" <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: "SDF ( aka ;jim lahey' - Scott )" <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Organization: Cosmic Reminders
Subject: Re: $100 Reward to Solve Starter Problem
In-Reply-To: <BLU404-EAS36350030EDDA1DDD9A68C39D2000@phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
I would say it's pretty unlikely that there would be damage to the ecu
harness as the ecu end ( unless you had a complete meltdown of one wire
extending through the entire harness ).
Not sure if you mean that you are having trouble getting the black metal
ecu cover/holder unclipped from the body...
I have had that issue though. On a vanagon where that cover has never
been popped off those two stud things it lives on , I've had to do some
serious prying to get it off the first time.
the 15 wire goes to the coil in the engine compartment ( and possibly
other places )
if you are getting 'stopped' in the wiring diagrams when you follow a
wire to a box with a number in it ..
it's a little crazy ..
what you do is ..say you have a 12 in a small box..
you look directly below to the bottom of the page to find the track number.
then you to track 12 and look for a box with the number you found below
the box with a 12 in it. above ..
those two spots connect.
don't give up !
"It's just a blockage or leakage of fluids or electrons."
scott
On 7/4/2014 9:16 AM, Richard Golen wrote:
> Stuart and Scott,
>
> I've followed the suggestions of Mark and disconnected a connector in the connector box in the engine compartment as well as disconnecting the idle stabilizer relay. No change.
>
> I did some exploratory surgery on the wire harness to the ECU. I could only open up a small section of the harness cover as the rest of the harness is behind the panel that holds the rear seat hinge mechanism. The wires looked fine at that point. I tried to remove that panel, but it seems to be glued/nailed to the structure that supports rear seat. So, for now, I can't reach the rest of the harness.
>
> I played around with the plug on the ignition switch, and the problem is definitely with the starter wire at terminal 50 and the wire or circuit from terminal 15 on the switch.
>
> So, the question I have now is where does the wire/circuit from 15. Yes I have the Bentley manual, but I'm having trouble going from page to page or circuit to circuit and following the wiring for 15. Do you know where that wire leads to?
>
> Any suggestions? I'm almost at the point that the easiest way to solve the problem is to run a new wire from 50 on the ignition switch to 50 on the starter solenoid.
>
> Ric
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
>> On Jul 2, 2014, at 21:55, "SDF ( aka ;jim lahey' - Scott )" <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM> wrote:
>>
>> got sorta 'an issue' with # 2 below.
>>
>> there's no suck thing as 'the fuel pump side of the ignition switch.'
>>
>> there are two kinds of 'on' though ...15 Ign voltage.....stays on during
>> starting cranking so engine can fire up.
>>
>> things that work when the van is running ..like wipers and headlights..
>> get their power from the X contact of the ign switch ....which is not
>> energized during starter cranking.
>>
>> the fuel pump is initially energized by the ecu supplying ground to the
>> fuel pump relay.
>> Does your fuel pump run a few seconds and shut off when you just turn
>> the key to 'on' ??
>>
>> if there is any suspecisioon about the fuel pump relay or circuit
>> causing the starter to stay engaged...
>> try unplugging the fuel pump relay ..
>> as a simple test.
>> ( if starter works normally that way ..you could just hot wire the fuel
>> pump as a test to prove that it can run without the starter hanging up. )
>> here is when the fuel pump runs ( and it doesn't have a lot to do with
>> the ign sw )
>> 1...when you turn the key to on ( which one should always do when
>> starting a vanagon ) fuel pump runs for a few seconds and shuts off
>> because the ecu supplies ground to the fuel pump relay.
>>
>> 2. during starter cranking ...'I believe' the fuel pump relay is
>> energized by the ecu seeing the ignition pulses.
>> if you , for example...are testing for spark by having the distributor
>> in your hands and turning it with your fingers, key on...
>> each ign pulse will trigger the ecu to supply ground to the fuel pump
>> relay, thus energizing the fuel pump.
>>
>> 3. during run .....ignition pulses tell the ecu the engine is
>> running..it keeps supplying ground to the FP relay to keep it energized.
>>
>> I do a lot of 'substitute and bypass' ...
>> I would disable circucits until I had a stater that cranked with a
>> remote starter switch at the starter ..
>> if that works ..
>> add cicuits and features in one at a time.
>>
>> Scott
>>> On 7/2/2014 3:32 PM, Richard Golen wrote:
>>> Dear Vanagon List Members,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I am offering a $100 Reward for the solution to my starter problem. Please
>>> read all of this carefully before suggesting your solution. The reward will be
>>> sent via PayPal or via check.
>>>
>>> The
>>> "patient" is a 1987 Vanagon Westfalia with a manual transmission. The
>>> "problem" starter solenoid will not disengage when key released from
>>> "start" position. Sometimes, I can quickly switch off and back off
>>> and the starter will briefly disengage, but will re-engage.
>>>
>>> Here's what I have observed. On a trip to Lime Rock Park two
>>> weeks ago, while on the interstate, smoke and electrical wire burning smell
>>> started coming out of the area under the rear seat in the area of the ECU. I
>>> quickly shut off the engine, coasted to the breakdown lane. Popped the rear
>>> seat and the cover to the ECU to see if the problem was, in fact, the ECU. The
>>> only thing I noticed was the cooling fins on the ECU seemed to be hot. I let it
>>> cool down, restarted the engine, and drove off. No problems the rest of the
>>> trip to Lime Rock.
>>>
>>> Two days later when we were leaving LRP, I started the
>>> engine and the revs went from 800 to 1500 to 2000 to 2500. Blipped the
>>> throttle, no change. Shut off the engine, and checked the engine. Throttle and
>>> cable were not binding. I disconnected the idle stabilizer and the revs dropped
>>> to 800. While checking things out, I noticed that one of the wires from the
>>> power steering sensor had come loose and grounded out. Taped the connector so
>>> it wouldn't ground out again on the way home.
>>>
>>> The next day I installed a new Bosch rebuilt starter. I had
>>> planned on replacing the starter as it was getting old. The new starter worked
>>> perfectly. However, the next morning when I started the van the starter would
>>> not disengage. Shut off the ignition, turn it back to on, engine was running
>>> but the starter did not disengage. I did
>>> put the old starter back in, and it too was doing the same thing. Put new
>>> starter back in.
>>>
>>>
>>> Here's what I've done so far:
>>>
>>> 1. replaced the ignition switch. Still same problem.
>>>
>>>
>>> 2. made a jumper for the ignition switch plug with 4 male
>>> terminals. One terminal to the + from the battery, one to the fuel pump side of
>>> the switch, one to the ignition (warning lights came on with this), then I
>>> jumped the wire to the starter solenoid. Engine started, disconnected wire.
>>> Engine ran, but starter did not disengage.
>>>
>>> Tried it again. Starter did not disengage when I
>>> disconnected the starter wire. This time, I disconnected the fuel pump wire and
>>> the starter disengaged. With my multimeter, I checked the voltage at the
>>> solenoid. No voltage with the switch off. With the switch on, but not to start,
>>> power to the solenoid. Disconnected the fuel pump wire at the ignition plug,
>>> and the power to the solenoid lead went off...no voltage.
>>>
>>>
>>> 3. Disconnected the auxiliary battery and auxiliary battery
>>> relay. No change.
>>>
>>>
>>> 4. Checked the wiring harness in the engine compartment that
>>> contains the leads to the power steering sensor and the plug to the idle
>>> stabilizer. The power lead wire to the sensor had grounded out, heated up and
>>> melted its insulation as well as some of the insulation to the power lead to
>>> the stabilizer.
>>>
>>> I figured voila! Found the problem. Repaired the wire to the
>>> stabilizer, put in a new section of wire for the power steering switch. Started
>>> the engine, and starter would not disengage.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 5. Swapped out the idle sensor relay. No change.
>>>
>>>
>>> 6. I removed the ECU and popped the cover. I couldn't see
>>> anything that looked burned.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I've poured over wiring diagrams in the Bentley as well as
>>> some that are online and am at a loss. The only other potential part that could
>>> be remotely related to this issue is the ECU. I have a spare one coming in the
>>> next few days, but don't want to put it in until I'm sure I'm not going to
>>> damage it.
>>>
>>>
>>> The only option I see is to run a new wire from the ignition
>>> switch to the solenoid, perhaps using a relay.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> So, here's the challenge. What could be the problem? I will
>>> pay $100 to the person who is able to diagnose the problem and I can get the
>>> starter to work properly. I will be more than happy to provide more info or
>>> answer any questions.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks in advance.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Ric
>>>
>>> 87 Westfalia
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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