Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 07:04:43 -0500
Reply-To: Jim Felder <jim.felder@GMAIL.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Jim Felder <jim.felder@GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Weird idle problem continues
In-Reply-To: <36FA3018-8706-43B4-A97A-1DBFFCF409F7@comcast.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
I have a spare idle stabilizer to loan out. Just give that part number so I
know I am sending the right thing.
Jim
On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 12:56 AM, OlRivrRat <OlRivrRat@comcast.net> wrote:
> Stuart
>
> I recently encountered an H2OBoxr that did not want to
> IdleDown ~ don't remember how high the Revs were ~
>
> Don't think as high as 3K ~ Maybe closer to 2K ~ & the culprit turned out
> to be the IdleStabilizerControlModule/Relay ~ Is
>
> there any chance you get an "local loaner" IdleStabilizerControlModule to
> try ~
>
>
> ORR ~ DeanB
>
>
>
>
>
> On 19 Oct , 2014, at 10:12 PM, Stuart MacMillan wrote:
>
> > I found a local loaner ECU and it didn't change anything. Now diving
> deeper. It has a hot 1" spark, but I'll measure the coil tomorrow and take
> a close look at the AFM and hall sensor.
> >
> > Stuart
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Dennis Haynes [mailto:d23haynes57@hotmail.com]
> > Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 7:41 AM
> > To: 'Stuart MacMillan'; vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
> > Subject: RE: Weird idle problem continues
> >
> > It is possible that you have a bad ECU or Hall sensor. I recently had a
> van with these symptoms and it turned out to be the coil. Take the coil out
> and test it with an ohmmeter. From the center post to the _ terminal should
> be ~4,500 ohms. The bad coil I had appeared OK at 3,500 ohms, (not open or
> shorted) but that was the problem. It had a week spark. That can also
> confuse the idle controller.
> >
> > Dennis
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Stuart MacMillan [mailto:stuartmacm@gmail.com]
> > Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 6:17 PM
> > To: 'Dennis Haynes'; vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
> > Subject: RE: Weird idle problem continues
> >
> > With the ISV connected. Unplug it and it won't idle at all, even after a
> few minutes of holding down the pedal. Plug it in, and it's up to 3500
> rpm, 2000 with the T2 disconnected. T2 voltage drops from 4.98 to 1 volt
> when I plug it in with the engine barely warm, measured with my Fluke meter
> by sticking the probe into the back of the connector. Bentley shows
> resistance dropping with increasing temp. There are two wires coming to the
> voltage terminal, and one ground wire from the other.
> >
> > With ISV plugged in and pinched off it won't idle. Adjusted throttle
> stop per Bentley. No matter what I've tried it will not idle, or idles at
> 2000 to 3500 rpm depending on whether the T2 sensor is connected.
> >
> > This happened literally over night after driving the well-running van
> 270 miles home. The next day all this appeared.
> >
> > I did find a very weak alternator, and the battery was run down to 25%
> the next day. It would crank but not start, but started with a jump. Maybe
> that did in the ECU.
> >
> > Something is sending the wrong signals obviously, but this engine is
> pretty clean, unmodified, and has been professionally serviced its whole
> life, which has been in the northwest. No cut & spliced wires, cut
> sheathing, corroded connectors, added equipment, accidents, etc., so I
> don’t think it's a wiring problem.
> >
> > Just for fun I popped the ECU plug and it looks fine. Situation is the
> same plugging it back in. At proverbial wits end. I have the TA version
> ECU, are they know to be problematic?
> >
> > Van Cafe wants $225 for a rebuilt ECU. I'm tempted to order one right
> now!
> >
> > Stuart
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Dennis Haynes [mailto:d23haynes57@hotmail.com]
> > Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 2:04 PM
> > To: 'Stuart MacMillan'; vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
> > Subject: RE: Weird idle problem continues
> >
> > Is that idle with the stabilizer valve connected? You need both fuel and
> air . Again, start by getting it to run/idle with the valve disconnected,
> maybe even pinch off or block the hoses. Check the voltage at that plug
> terminal with the sensor connected and disconnected. There must be a
> difference. If not you have a wiring issue or a bad input on the ECU. If
> fast idle with idle valve blocked you have a vacuum leak somewhere or the
> throttle is partly open.
> >
> > Dennis
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On Behalf
> Of Stuart MacMillan
> > Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 4:51 PM
> > To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
> > Subject: Re: Weird idle problem continues
> >
> > Checked the T2 sensor, and it's 1500 ohms @ 35 C, right what the Bentley
> says it should be. Sensor in AFM is also spot on. That T2 connector is
> clean as a whistle, contacts inside are not broken or corroded either.
> >
> > But remember, it idles at 2000 rpm with it unplugged! Something is
> dumping fuel in, and it must be a bad ECU unless you can think of something
> else.
> >
> > Stuart
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Dennis Haynes [mailto:d23haynes57@hotmail.com]
> > Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 1:23 PM
> > To: 'Stuart MacMillan'; vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
> > Subject: RE: Weird idle problem continues
> >
> > The ECU thinks the engine is really cold. Try changing the connector. It
> is the same as for the injectors except for color. A good auto parts store
> will have the connector and pigtail wires, maybe the Help or Cal-Term
> board. GM uses the same connectors.
> >
> > Dennis
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On Behalf
> Of Stuart MacMillan
> > Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 4:20 PM
> > To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
> > Subject: Re: Weird idle problem continues
> >
> > I've got 4.9 volts, and 0.02 volts on the connectors. Fuel pressure is
> 30 psi and no leaking at the regulator vacuum connection.
> >
> > All hooked up and the same situation--hard start, won't idle, 30 seconds
> later revs up to 3500 rpm and stays there.
> >
> > I give up. At least I have a good shop close by.
> >
> > Stuart
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Dennis Haynes [mailto:d23haynes57@hotmail.com]
> > Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 1:05 PM
> > To: 'Stuart MacMillan'; vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
> > Subject: RE: Weird idle problem continues
> >
> > High idle and timing defaulted is normal when temps is disconnected
> after engine running. That is part of the procedure to set the timing.
> Reconnect the snsor to then set the idle speed.
> >
> > Dennis
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Stuart MacMillan [mailto:stuartmacm@gmail.com]
> > Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 4:03 PM
> > To: 'Dennis Haynes'; vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
> > Subject: RE: Weird idle problem continues
> >
> > Thanks Dennis, that might actually be cheaper than taking it to a shop!
> >
> > I'll go check that now, but it still idles at 2000 rpm with temp 2
> disconnected.
> >
> > Stuart
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Dennis Haynes [mailto:d23haynes57@hotmail.com]
> > Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 12:51 PM
> > To: 'Stuart MacMillan'; vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
> > Subject: RE: Weird idle problem continues
> >
> > Where are you located again? Do you need me to fly there to fix it? Only
> kidding.
> > The hard start and idle problem is probably related. If it is flooding
> look at the Temp 2 sensor. The original sensors rarely go bad. What does go
> bad is the connector and the wiring to it. And then there is the ground
> connection for it. This sensor is used for both the ECU to control
> starting mixture, warm up mixture, when to go into O2 sensor operation and
> some ignition timing trim. It is also used by the idle stabilizer to modify
> idle speed for starting and warm up operation. There are also inputs for
> the AC and power steering.
> >
> > The temps sensor gets a signal off of the ECU and sinks it to the
> chassis. As the sensor warms up the resistance goes down increasing current
> flow which reduces the voltage at the ECU. Any high resistance in this path
> leaves a high voltage making the ECU and idle control unit think it is like
> 40 below. Yes it will run rich and if it does run idle high.
> >
> > Key on engine not running you can use a voltmeter to test the
> connections. On the ECU side of the sensor you need to see less than 5
> volts connected, between the connector and chassis). On the ground side
> needs to be real close to "0" If you have voltage on both sides or much
> above "0" on the ground side you have a bad ground path. If 5 volts on one
> side then you have a bad connection to the sensor.
> >
> > Hope this helps.
> >
> > Dennis
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On Behalf
> Of Stuart MacMillan
> > Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 3:13 PM
> > To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
> > Subject: Re: Weird idle problem continues
> >
> > I would, but son is tapped out for now. Need to get a year or two out
> of this one!
> >
> >
> >
> > From: Don Hanson [mailto:dhanson928@gmail.com]
> > Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 12:05 PM
> > To: Stuart MacMillan
> > Cc: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
> > Subject: Re: Weird idle problem continues
> >
> >
> >
> > Give in, Stuart....You know you are wanting a different motor...Do it
> now.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 12:02 PM, Stuart MacMillan <stuartmacm@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > Okay,
> >
> >
> >
> > Today it was very hard to start, much cranking with foot to floor to
> minimized flooding. Started, barely ran but 30 seconds later runs up to
> > 3000 rpm and stays there. Warmed it up for a couple of minutes.
> >
> >
> >
> > Unplugged O2, Temp2, and idle control power plug. Same hard to start
> condition, but it went to 2000 and stayed there. Checked the timing and it
> was a bit advanced but steady, so I adjusted that.
> >
> >
> >
> > Hooked everything back up and still hard starting, but went right up to
> 3500 rpm. Gave up.
> >
> >
> >
> > This is not a problem with the idle control circuit. What's left? AFM?
> > ECU? Other?
> >
> >
> >
> > About ready to have it towed to a shop where they can substitute parts
> they have lying around, but that would be painful in so many ways.
> >
> >
> >
> > Stuart
> >
> >
>
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