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Date:         Mon, 20 Oct 2014 10:50:07 -0700
Reply-To:     Stuart MacMillan <stuartmacm@GMAIL.COM>
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From:         Stuart MacMillan <stuartmacm@GMAIL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Weird idle problem continues
Comments: To: OlRivrRat <OlRivrRat@comcast.net>
In-Reply-To:  <36FA3018-8706-43B4-A97A-1DBFFCF409F7@comcast.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I can buy one used here for $75 and that's probably it, I've just been chasing wild gooses, but there may well be other issues, but not the ECU!

Stuart

-----Original Message----- From: OlRivrRat [mailto:OlRivrRat@comcast.net] Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:57 PM To: Stuart MacMillan Cc: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM Subject: Re: Weird idle problem continues

Stuart

I recently encountered an H2OBoxr that did not want to IdleDown ~ don't remember how high the Revs were ~

Don't think as high as 3K ~ Maybe closer to 2K ~ & the culprit turned out to be the IdleStabilizerControlModule/Relay ~ Is

there any chance you get an "local loaner" IdleStabilizerControlModule to try ~

ORR ~ DeanB

On 19 Oct , 2014, at 10:12 PM, Stuart MacMillan wrote:

> I found a local loaner ECU and it didn't change anything. Now diving deeper. It has a hot 1" spark, but I'll measure the coil tomorrow and take a close look at the AFM and hall sensor. > > Stuart > > -----Original Message----- > From: Dennis Haynes [mailto:d23haynes57@hotmail.com] > Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 7:41 AM > To: 'Stuart MacMillan'; vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM > Subject: RE: Weird idle problem continues > > It is possible that you have a bad ECU or Hall sensor. I recently had a van with these symptoms and it turned out to be the coil. Take the coil out and test it with an ohmmeter. From the center post to the _ terminal should be ~4,500 ohms. The bad coil I had appeared OK at 3,500 ohms, (not open or shorted) but that was the problem. It had a week spark. That can also confuse the idle controller. > > Dennis > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Stuart MacMillan [mailto:stuartmacm@gmail.com] > Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 6:17 PM > To: 'Dennis Haynes'; vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM > Subject: RE: Weird idle problem continues > > With the ISV connected. Unplug it and it won't idle at all, even after a few minutes of holding down the pedal. Plug it in, and it's up to 3500 rpm, 2000 with the T2 disconnected. T2 voltage drops from 4.98 to 1 volt when I plug it in with the engine barely warm, measured with my Fluke meter by sticking the probe into the back of the connector. Bentley shows resistance dropping with increasing temp. There are two wires coming to the voltage terminal, and one ground wire from the other. > > With ISV plugged in and pinched off it won't idle. Adjusted throttle stop per Bentley. No matter what I've tried it will not idle, or idles at 2000 to 3500 rpm depending on whether the T2 sensor is connected. > > This happened literally over night after driving the well-running van 270 miles home. The next day all this appeared. > > I did find a very weak alternator, and the battery was run down to 25% the next day. It would crank but not start, but started with a jump. Maybe that did in the ECU. > > Something is sending the wrong signals obviously, but this engine is pretty clean, unmodified, and has been professionally serviced its whole life, which has been in the northwest. No cut & spliced wires, cut sheathing, corroded connectors, added equipment, accidents, etc., so I don't think it's a wiring problem. > > Just for fun I popped the ECU plug and it looks fine. Situation is the same plugging it back in. At proverbial wits end. I have the TA version ECU, are they know to be problematic? > > Van Cafe wants $225 for a rebuilt ECU. I'm tempted to order one right now! > > Stuart > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Dennis Haynes [mailto:d23haynes57@hotmail.com] > Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 2:04 PM > To: 'Stuart MacMillan'; vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM > Subject: RE: Weird idle problem continues > > Is that idle with the stabilizer valve connected? You need both fuel and air . Again, start by getting it to run/idle with the valve disconnected, maybe even pinch off or block the hoses. Check the voltage at that plug terminal with the sensor connected and disconnected. There must be a difference. If not you have a wiring issue or a bad input on the ECU. If fast idle with idle valve blocked you have a vacuum leak somewhere or the throttle is partly open. > > Dennis > > -----Original Message----- > From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On Behalf Of Stuart MacMillan > Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 4:51 PM > To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM > Subject: Re: Weird idle problem continues > > Checked the T2 sensor, and it's 1500 ohms @ 35 C, right what the Bentley says it should be. Sensor in AFM is also spot on. That T2 connector is clean as a whistle, contacts inside are not broken or corroded either. > > But remember, it idles at 2000 rpm with it unplugged! Something is dumping fuel in, and it must be a bad ECU unless you can think of something else. > > Stuart > > -----Original Message----- > From: Dennis Haynes [mailto:d23haynes57@hotmail.com] > Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 1:23 PM > To: 'Stuart MacMillan'; vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM > Subject: RE: Weird idle problem continues > > The ECU thinks the engine is really cold. Try changing the connector. It is the same as for the injectors except for color. A good auto parts store will have the connector and pigtail wires, maybe the Help or Cal-Term board. GM uses the same connectors. > > Dennis > > -----Original Message----- > From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On Behalf Of Stuart MacMillan > Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 4:20 PM > To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM > Subject: Re: Weird idle problem continues > > I've got 4.9 volts, and 0.02 volts on the connectors. Fuel pressure is 30 psi and no leaking at the regulator vacuum connection. > > All hooked up and the same situation--hard start, won't idle, 30 seconds later revs up to 3500 rpm and stays there. > > I give up. At least I have a good shop close by. > > Stuart > > -----Original Message----- > From: Dennis Haynes [mailto:d23haynes57@hotmail.com] > Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 1:05 PM > To: 'Stuart MacMillan'; vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM > Subject: RE: Weird idle problem continues > > High idle and timing defaulted is normal when temps is disconnected after engine running. That is part of the procedure to set the timing. Reconnect the snsor to then set the idle speed. > > Dennis > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Stuart MacMillan [mailto:stuartmacm@gmail.com] > Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 4:03 PM > To: 'Dennis Haynes'; vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM > Subject: RE: Weird idle problem continues > > Thanks Dennis, that might actually be cheaper than taking it to a shop! > > I'll go check that now, but it still idles at 2000 rpm with temp 2 disconnected. > > Stuart > > -----Original Message----- > From: Dennis Haynes [mailto:d23haynes57@hotmail.com] > Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 12:51 PM > To: 'Stuart MacMillan'; vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM > Subject: RE: Weird idle problem continues > > Where are you located again? Do you need me to fly there to fix it? Only kidding. > The hard start and idle problem is probably related. If it is flooding look at the Temp 2 sensor. The original sensors rarely go bad. What does go bad is the connector and the wiring to it. And then there is the ground connection for it. This sensor is used for both the ECU to control starting mixture, warm up mixture, when to go into O2 sensor operation and some ignition timing trim. It is also used by the idle stabilizer to modify idle speed for starting and warm up operation. There are also inputs for the AC and power steering. > > The temps sensor gets a signal off of the ECU and sinks it to the chassis. As the sensor warms up the resistance goes down increasing current flow which reduces the voltage at the ECU. Any high resistance in this path leaves a high voltage making the ECU and idle control unit think it is like 40 below. Yes it will run rich and if it does run idle high. > > Key on engine not running you can use a voltmeter to test the connections. On the ECU side of the sensor you need to see less than 5 volts connected, between the connector and chassis). On the ground side needs to be real close to "0" If you have voltage on both sides or much above "0" on the ground side you have a bad ground path. If 5 volts on one side then you have a bad connection to the sensor. > > Hope this helps. > > Dennis > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On Behalf Of Stuart MacMillan > Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 3:13 PM > To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM > Subject: Re: Weird idle problem continues > > I would, but son is tapped out for now. Need to get a year or two out of this one! > > > > From: Don Hanson [mailto:dhanson928@gmail.com] > Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 12:05 PM > To: Stuart MacMillan > Cc: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM > Subject: Re: Weird idle problem continues > > > > Give in, Stuart....You know you are wanting a different motor...Do it now. > > > > On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 12:02 PM, Stuart MacMillan <stuartmacm@gmail.com> wrote: > > Okay, > > > > Today it was very hard to start, much cranking with foot to floor to minimized flooding. Started, barely ran but 30 seconds later runs up to > 3000 rpm and stays there. Warmed it up for a couple of minutes. > > > > Unplugged O2, Temp2, and idle control power plug. Same hard to start condition, but it went to 2000 and stayed there. Checked the timing and it was a bit advanced but steady, so I adjusted that. > > > > Hooked everything back up and still hard starting, but went right up to 3500 rpm. Gave up. > > > > This is not a problem with the idle control circuit. What's left? AFM? > ECU? Other? > > > > About ready to have it towed to a shop where they can substitute parts they have lying around, but that would be painful in so many ways. > > > > Stuart > >


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