Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2014 23:37:30 -0800
Reply-To: Alistair Bell <albell@SHAW.CA>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Alistair Bell <albell@SHAW.CA>
Subject: Re: German, Chinese and American Parts
In-Reply-To: <81b801d00ec5$9f9cbd60$ded63820$@hiwaay.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
My point is that when the 70's came round and the British auto industry had strikes, it was already a dead industry. It's was brought down by management decisions through the fifties and sixties. Any chance of a reversal in that industry's fortunes through some sort rapprochement between management and labour was scuttled at that time by mutual distrust and government inadequacy.
The phone example you cite where labour costs was the deciding factor is a good example of a race to the bottom.
This thread is named "German, Chinese and America parts" . Lower production costs in China, lower labour costs, makes those sourced parts less expensive. The quality of those parts might be better or worse than the same parts from other countries. Let the market decide what success is.
Meanwhile there is an amazing US trade deficit with China, is it something like a 4x ratio? That has to hurt, if not now then later.
Alistair
> On Dec 2, 2014, at 10:51 PM, Tom Hargrave <thargrav@hiwaay.net> wrote:
>
> Both of us can spend the rest of the evening quoting facts that are correct. We will just continue talking past each other, just like Unions and Management did in England in the 1970's. I agree that Management had a huge stake in their failure but you refuse to accept the fact that the labor Unions owned an equal share. Saddled with overbearing controlling Unions, Management could do nothing but react.
>
> And BTW I'm also speaking from my experience and my family's experience. I've worked in Union shops and was a long term CWA member. My family grew up working for Bethlehem Steel in Lackawanna NY and I've also been a "Union" trade Electrician in Western NY State. But I've also been a member of Management who had to run by a budget. I've been in a position where because of the cost of Union wages and benefits, we decided to not bring additional business in. The cost was too high, and we imported telephones in from Korea instead. At that time our burdened labor rate to build a standard desk phone was $13.00 and the exact same phones from Korea cost us $9.00 each with shipping to our dock. Sure, we could have gone ahead built in the USA and watch our competition under-cut us with their lower prices. At the time Radio Shack was selling the same phone for $19.95 each.
>
> These days I'm a consultant who designs databases that cut labor out of processes. In other words, I cost jobs but I help save businesses. Competition is where it's at and if you can do a quality job faster at lower cost you win. That's not always in China, sometimes it's here in the good ol' USA. If the companies I help were burdened with overbearing labor Unions I would not be able to help because the Unions would not let them save labor. Instead the Unions would force them to find "other work" elsewhere in the company. How many Employees do you displace before you are paying 20%, 30%, or 40% of your "workforce" to do nothing? This BTW is part of what sunk the British auto industry!!!
>
> I also own a small business that designs and sells targeted controllers and stir plates. I own the designs and family builds most of the product. I've failed twice in business over the past 10 years and I don't need the help of someone else telling me what I must pay employees in wages and benefits to help me fail a third time!
>
> And I stated earlier that I'm not anti-Union. I believe that the threat of a Union is a good thing. The threat of a Union helps keep greedy businessmen in line. I have real issues with any Union that gains enough control over a company that the Union has a strong negative influence of the bottom line. In most cases when you reach this point the company is on the way out. And during the 3 - 7 year slide to the bottom Management is blaming the Union and Unions are blaming management all the way to the end.
>
> I mentioned that my family worked in the steel industry? I saw this very thing happen with them. The steel mills did not shut down because of bad Management or overbearing Unions, they shut down because of both. But we also reached the point in this country where we had so much ready-made steel that it was more cost efficient for mini-mills in the South to use lower cost electricity to recycle steel than to manufacture new steel. This plus more items being manufactured from plastic spelled the death of major steel mills like Bethlehem Steel and most of the other mills along the Great Lakes. It's obvious now but this did not prevent Management and Unions from blaming each other for the next 20 years - all the way to the end!!!!
>
> Oh, and for better or worse we got a President out of it and you can probably guess my opinion of that one!
>
> Thanks, Tom Hargrave
> www.kegkits.com
> www.stir-plate.com
> www.towercooler.com
> www.grow-sun.com
> www.raspberryproject.com
> http://goo.gl/niRzVw
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM] On Behalf Of Alistair Bell
> Sent: Tuesday, December 2, 2014 11:00 PM
> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
> Subject: Re: German, Chinese and American Parts
>
> Did labour unions cleave to outdated auto design even in the face of modern examples from overseas?
>
> No, that was management.
>
> When the 70s came around and labour protests were at their peak, the damage of poor planning and absolutely stupid management decisions was done. Strikes were like the rooster crowing, signalling the sunrise but not responsible for it.
>
> Alistair
>
>
>
>
>> On Dec 2, 2014, at 7:52 PM, Tom Hargrave <thargrav@hiwaay.net> wrote:
>>
>> Sure, you perpetuate your myths and I'll perpetuate mine, and at the end of the day we are both probably somewhat right. I never said the British Government had no skin in this and Labor Unions don't organize in a vacuum. But the Brittan's Management and Government's faults leading to strong unions does not negate the damage those Unions did to their auto industry in the 1970's. They lost the race by not competing with the Japanese and Germans and that is the Union's fault. Would it be any different if their unions were not so strong? We will never know!
>>
>> Thanks, Tom Hargrave
>> www.kegkits.com
>> www.stir-plate.com
>> www.towercooler.com
>> www.grow-sun.com
>> www.raspberryproject.com
>> http://goo.gl/niRzVw
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM] On
>> Behalf Of Alistair Bell
>> Sent: Tuesday, December 2, 2014 9:32 PM
>> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
>> Subject: Re: German, Chinese and American Parts
>>
>> Yeah sure, perpetuate the myth of British labour unions being "the" issue. Fact is that management and government failures are the root of the problem.
>>
>> Easy to blame labour, always an easy target. Men and women in the line protesting and taking job action. Thinking it through will make you realize that blaming labour for the demise of the uk auto industry is a superficial analysis.
>>
>> You can tell where my roots are, socialist christian activists protesting since the 20's. God knows we need more like them now.
>>
>> Alistair
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Dec 2, 2014, at 6:53 PM, Tom Hargrave <thargrav@HIWAAY.NET> wrote:
>>>
>>> Jim,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Lucas made great parts for everyone else but their British customers. In the 1970’s, Labor Unions had a strangle hold on the British auto industry and they were forced to buy from only British suppliers. Not only did Lucas make crappy electronics because they did not have to improve for their own, the British steel was also so bad that just about every British car made in the 1970’s has rotted away.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> And BTW, I’m not pro or against unions. My Wife is a UAW Employee benefits rep. The threat of a union is a great thing because just like greedy unions, there are also greedy business owners. To have a viable union threat you must have healthy unions which means that someone has to be unionized.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks, Tom Hargrave
>>>
>>> <http://www.kegkits.com/> www.kegkits.com
>>>
>>> <http://www.stir-plate.com/> www.stir-plate.com
>>>
>>> <http://www.towercooler.com/> www.towercooler.com
>>>
>>> <http://www.grow-sun.com/> www.grow-sun.com
>>>
>>> <http://www.raspberryproject.com/> www.raspberryproject.com
>>>
>>> <http://goo.gl/niRzVw> http://goo.gl/niRzVw
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: Jim Felder [mailto:jim.felder@gmail.com]
>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 2, 2014 7:20 PM
>>> To: Tom Hargrave
>>> Subject: Re: German, Chinese and American Parts
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Here's one for you... on a VW diesel 1.6 engine, pull off the flange that secures the intermediate shaft seal. Chances are pretty good that it says "Made in England."
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> And you thought your Lucas days were behind you.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Jim
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Dec 2, 2014 at 6:39 PM, Tom Hargrave <thargrav@hiwaay.net <mailto:thargrav@hiwaay.net> > wrote:
>>>
>>> I noticed from the Rock Auto thread that some believe most parts are
>>> made in China? For modern production car glass that might be true but
>>> I bet that Vanagon replacement glass is probably made here in the USA.
>>> Actually, a lot of things are made here - we still do more manufacturing than China today.
>>> All of the high volume low cost comes from China.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Oh, and on the German Parts comment? You'd be surprised at how little
>>> of your Vanagon is German! And for proof, pull one of your front
>>> wheel bearings. If it's original it will be stamped "Made in Japan".
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks, Tom Hargrave
>>>
>>> www.kegkits.com <http://www.kegkits.com> <http://www.kegkits.com/>
>>>
>>> www.stir-plate.com <http://www.stir-plate.com>
>>> <http://www.stir-plate.com/>
>>>
>>> www.towercooler.com <http://www.towercooler.com>
>>> <http://www.towercooler.com/>
>>>
>>> www.grow-sun.com <http://www.grow-sun.com>
>>> <http://www.grow-sun.com/>
>>>
>>> www.raspberryproject.com <http://www.raspberryproject.com>
>>> <http://www.raspberryproject.com/>
>>>
>>> http://goo.gl/niRzVw
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _____
>>>
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>>> 11/30/14
>>
>> -----
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>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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>> 11/30/14
>>
>
> -----
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> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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