Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2014 13:19:54 -0500
Reply-To: Marc Perdue <mcperdue@GMAIL.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Marc Perdue <mcperdue@GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Trying to understand starter stuff
In-Reply-To: <CA+az7_784dhWE32zV=wk8Qgf4bZjRsgkByVWAnnhBa_1i8CVjQ@mail.gmail.com>
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Because of the number of replies suggesting the Jay Brown Hard Start
Relay, and because of the great reviews it's gotten and the fact that
it makes sense to me, I ordered it about 4 hours ago. Thanks everyone!
I'm so looking forward to having some warm, dry weather to install
some upgrades on my van!!! Heck of a Christmas present, in my mind . .
.
Marc
On Tue, Dec 23, 2014 at 12:57 PM, John Rodgers <jrodgers113@gmail.com> wrote:
> I have one of Jay Browns starter relays on both of my vans. Recently I
> discovered that I could pull the relay cover and actuate the relay by hand,
> thus making it work as a remote start switch when working onthe engine.
> Very handy.
>
> John
> On Dec 23, 2014 10:49 AM, "Stuart MacMillan" <stuartmacm@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Here is a nice relay setup:
>> http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1119534 (Won't work
>> with an automatic with factory cruise control for some reason though.)
>>
>> Stuart
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On Behalf Of
>> David Beierl
>> Sent: Monday, December 22, 2014 9:46 PM
>> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
>> Subject: Re: Trying to understand starter stuff
>>
>> At 11:03 PM 12/22/2014, Marc Perdue wrote:
>> >Hi all,
>>
>> Excellent! I now have three verified cases of a starter control lead
>> coming
>> off without causing a hard start failure: your Van, my '89 2.1l, and my
>> '71
>> Fiat 128. I solved that one after running out of gas in an uphill line to
>> buy gas somwehere in upstate New York, when it became clear that the motor
>> would crank if it were torqued slightly sideways.
>>
>> Starters have some challenging necessities. They have to have big cables
>> direct to the battery; a heavy switch that can switch them on and off under
>> load without burning up quickly; a means of engaging the pinion into the
>> flywheel ring gear; and a positive means of disengaging it when the motor
>> starts, so the starter doesn't burst from overspeed.
>>
>> Back when the world was new the electrical switching was done by a
>> heavy-duty relay that would today be called a contactor but was commonly
>> known as a solenoid. It was mounted somewhere between battery and starter,
>> and a light wire from the starter button or key switch used to activate it.
>> For testing you could use a screwdriver to jumper between the big battery
>> cable connection and the control terminal. Starter "solenoids" were a
>> commonly available FLAPS part and no doubt still are; as they regularly
>> failed in use. Last one I bought cost three or four dollars. Excellent
>> for
>> switching a couple hundred amps DC but not rated for continuous duty.
>> They're meant for starting cars, once per trip segment, plenty of time to
>> cool in between.
>>
>> Engaging and disengaging the pinion was accomplished by a clever invention
>> called a Bendix drive. The pinion was mounted on the starter shaft and
>> engaged a pair of helical slots in the shaft. It was kept wound down to
>> the
>> bottoms of the slots by a light spring that pressed it away from the end of
>> the shaft. When you hit the button, the shaft would spin violently and
>> hurl
>> the pinion into engagement during the first few revolutions. And when the
>> motor started, the ring gear would spin the pinion back down the track out
>> of engagement. It worked a treat, so long as you kept it clean and not
>> gucked up with oik or grease. The Bendix Corporation waxed fat and happy.
>>
>> Came the day that someone thought it would be better to combine actions.
>> If
>> the contactor were mounted on the starter it would simplify wiring, and it
>> could be used as a real solenoid, to physically throw the pinion into
>> engagement as well. Or rather a solenoid could be thus used, and with some
>> contacts added could perform the contactor function as well. An
>> overrunning
>> clutch would handle decoupling the starter from the engine, leaving the
>> pinion in engagement but not forcing the starter to keep up with it. Full
>> disengagement would happen when the key was released. Over a decade or two
>> this method largely took over for starting cars, and that's how Bosch did
>> it
>> on our starters.
>>
>> The big cable goes direct from battery to starter, where it meets the
>> thinner wire from the alternator that supplies charge. That connection is
>> subject to corrosion. The ground connection through the starter, bell
>> housing, transmission ground strap may be defective. The solenoid itself
>> wears and gets crudded up; you have to take the starter apart to clean it
>> up. Non-A/T versions of this starter have no bearing at the pinion end;
>> the
>> shaft inserts into a sleeve bearing that's in turn inserted into the bell
>> housing of the engine. That wears and needs renewal. And the solenoid
>> gets
>> its operating power not from that fat cable but from battery to panel to
>> ignition switch and back to the starter. It only needs two or three amps,
>> but it's a long trip. It's easy to see if a relay could help it -- just
>> jumper the alternator B+ post to the starter control terminal. You can
>> reach it by reaching your hand over the top of the bell housing, quite a
>> way
>> forward and then to the right. There's probably a spare terminal to latch
>> on to. If it cranks snappily that way and listlessly by the key, add a
>> relay. If it makes no difference, neither will the relay.
>>
>> Yours,
>> David
>>
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