Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 17:25:13 -0400
Reply-To: Dennis Haynes <d23haynes57@HOTMAIL.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Dennis Haynes <d23haynes57@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: 2.1 L WBX Overheat -1991 Carat
In-Reply-To: <CAHTkEuJMAq7C=dBRtw=vZLsFvW0j_sujSRxnTDLJj-gzSzOkpQ@mail.gmail.com>
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As bad as the Waterboxer may be I would like to see how most any engine used for a conversion would last in the event of a major cooling system failure. I have replaced enough head gaskets, heads and broken cams on the inline 4's to know they are not much more resistant to this and I also know how to replace Subaru head gaskets. Take a good look in the phone look and look for engine rebuilders. There are many. No engine is immune from failure. For anyone not doing their own work and scrounging for used parts and some fabrication engine conversions quickly become $10K ordeals or more. At some point don’t just upgrade the engine, upgrade the vehicle. There are reasons most vehicles depreciate. Besides the wear and age of parts they do become obsolete. None of the 80's VW product is known for stellar reliability. Even my 88 Fox which has been good to me has needed a radiator and heater core and the transmission has been screaming for about 30K miles now. At 158K it has had the water pump replaced 2x and it likes to eat radiator fan switches. Any of these events could have killed the engine. The real weak links are the support systems, lack of inspection maintenance, and continued operation after a failure.
Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On Behalf Of Don Hanson
Sent: Friday, March 20, 2015 11:09 AM
To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
Subject: Re: 2.1 L WBX Overheat -1991 Carat
I must say, when I hear people asking this same general question over and over about what to do about the motor, when they've broken their Vanagon...and they keep on with the questions about the WBX motor....What is wrong, People? What part of "the WBX is very poor motor" do you not get?
Within ten minutes,, researching on the internet, when diesel fuel for my truck and Alaskan Camper got very expensive not long ago and I began looking for a camping vehicle I could afford to keep driving, it became quickly evident that VW vans, with standard WBX motors were simply not very dependable and undeniably prone to all kinds of frequent expensive failures. It is right there, in black and white, over and over and over.....you can stick your fingers in your ears and go "La La La la la la..with your tongue our at the top of your voice" trying to deny the facts....but there it IS!
I suppose that "collectors" might have a reason to keep the poorly-designed and undependable standard VW waterboxer motor in their collector vans, but for those who use them daily, it makes no sense whatsoever to even consider wanting to re-install a very problematic and undeniably poorly-designed standard engine in an otherwise excellent vehicle..
.If someone GAVE me a pristine Go Westie or Boston Bob motor, I still would NOT put it in my vanagon....Why would I, when all the other's who've driven these wonderful vehicles have already proven that the WBX motor simply is not good, except in a few very rare cases where someone has kept one running for more than a year or two. What part of "Poor choice"...is unclear?
The math has been done. The HIstory has been made.... The Vanagons have been around for a long time now, still spewing water and oil and blowing up
and being rebuilt. The ones that are giving good service are those that
have different motors installed.....There is no other way to interpret all the available information about the WBX motor...
I've never bothered to do all the math but generally it seems like people spend just slightly less having a Water boxer motor put into their vanagon than they would if they had another more effective type of motor installed....but really, people......Where's the justification for paying more for an inferior design, where's the fun in spending a couple of grand on a POS that will be blowing up in a few years anyhow and will get crummy gas mileage and go slowly till it does blow?
I'd say the jury should be in when it comes to the verdict on the Waterboxer motor......They aren't even heavy enough to make good boat anchors..
On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 9:18 PM, John Rodgers <jrodgers113@gmail.com> wrote:
> Dennis, thanks,
>
> I've pretty much decided on two options, both of which will leave me
> without Carat as my daily driver. I'm trying to buy a house, and
> really need to cash the Carat out. Not much option there. But do I
> want the trouble of dealing with the engine, or should I discount the
> van and let the next owner put in what he wants. The engine is done so
> far as I am concerned, and I'm leaning toward the next guy doing it.
> It's a good van, low mileage so far as vans go, and is fairly complete
> including jump seats with matching upholstery in good condition. It's
> just that the gerbils running the wheel have died of heat stroke!
>
> John
> On Mar 19, 2015 9:57 PM, "Dennis Haynes" <d23haynes57@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > At some point it is becoming worthwhile to get this to someone
> > knowledgeable. A cooling system failure is always tough on an engine
> > and
> if
> > run too long there can be damage that is not immediately evident.
> > The Waterboxer doesn't not have head gaskets in the conventional sense.
> During
> > an over heat situation the head studs can stretch enough to let the
> > heads float off the cylinders and that will cause leakage that will
> > burn
> through
> > the seal rings between the cylinders and the heads. The studs can be
> > destroyed by this. It is also likely that one or both heads cracked.
> Since
> > the symptoms came later along with the bent push rods I bet you will
> need a
> > set of heads.
> >
> > As part of dealing with you need to consider that parts of the
> > cooling system have also been compromised. The radiator or heater
> > cores can be
> the
> > next to fail along with other plastic parts and hoses.
> >
> > It is possible this engine can be repaired with a set of heads and
> > maybe rings. The head studs will need to be inspected and tested.
> > The case also needs to be checked that it is still straight so that
> > the cylinder deck
> is
> > in line so heads can seal across the two cylinders. It may be easier
> > to
> get
> > an exchange engine. Keep in mind that most engines that got to these
> > rebuilders have suffered fates similar to yours. Many rebuilds have
> welded
> > heads, poor quality piston-cylinder sets, and the cases can be worn
> > at
> the
> > bearing journals.
> >
> > Of course you can consider an upgrade. How much can you do yourself
> > and how much are you able-willing to spend?
> >
> > Some good diagnoses work needs to be done to establish the future
> > course for this engine. You don’t want to keep putting out time and
> > money if you're not getting a long term fix.
> >
> > Dennis
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On
> > Behalf Of John Rodgers
> > Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2015 12:32 PM
> > To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
> > Subject: 2.1 L WBX Overheat -1991 Carat
> >
> > First - it overheated. Then came the fun. Oil leaks. Found split
> > push
> rod
> > tubes. Then discovered bent push rods. Next a loud tick or clatter
> > that won't go away no matter what - so bad lifter perhaps the result
> > of overheat. Now discover coolant in reservoir going down while
> > overflow reservoir filling up - meaning a blown head gasket. What next?
> >
> > At best this calls for head reseal with new gaskets and a valve job
> > on each head. At worst, since it was overheated, a rebuild or replacement.
> >
> > Are there other considerations I should make?
> >
> > John
> >
>
