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Date:         Tue, 5 May 2015 09:48:46 -0700
Reply-To:     Wes Neuenschwander <wes.neuenschwander@COMCAST.NET>
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From:         Wes Neuenschwander <wes.neuenschwander@COMCAST.NET>
Subject:      Re: 91 Westy - Mysterious Clutch/Transmission Problem Clutch
              driven, (Slave) cylinders.
Comments: cc: Dennis Haynes <d23haynes57@hotmail.com>
In-Reply-To:  <BAY405-EAS2075DDEB9DF4B5720BF6F74A0D30@phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Well the mystery is solved - sort of. First of all, kudos to Chris and the fine folks at Fine Tuning. Unstinting devotion to solving this problem, for sure. Chris and his techs checked and rechecked every conceivable factor - removing and replacing the tranny 3 times, checking operation of both the clutch and actuators, swapping out parts, etc. Still no go. Finally, recalling my steadfast declaimer that "it didn't do this before I brought it in" they thought, "Aha! Perhaps it's an "operator thing". Sure enough - and weird beyond belief - I came in, shifted it - repeatedly - in and out of reverse. Not a noise to be heard. When both Chris and the tech did the same thing, sure enough, every other or so attempt produced a brief (very brief) slight 'grind' noise. I am flumoxed! But I'm also confident that the clutch system has been thoroughly 'vetted', and certainly everything is good to go for my upcoming road trip next week.

Many thanks to Chris and company for a great job! It is so rare to find someone these days with that combination of smarts, experience - and integrity. Chris not only went the extra mile (hell, many miles) on this one, but he treated me *extremely* fairly on the tab.

-Wes

-----Original Message----- From: Dennis Haynes [mailto:d23haynes57@hotmail.com] Sent: Sunday, May 03, 2015 4:35 AM To: 'Wes Neuenschwander'; vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM Subject: RE: 91 Westy - Mysterious Clutch/Transmission Problem Clutch driven, (Slave) cylinders.

Over the years I have replaced many of these cylinders and seen many different brands including some Chinese ones and never had a problem with the length. Many people just do not know how hydraulic things work. If the cylinder in fact did not have sufficient stroke or when the fork bends-breaks, or the clutch disc falls apart and spreads the pressure or one of the springs comes out of the hub and jams in there when the driven cylinder runs out of room the pedal will not make it down to the floor. Bleeding the clutch can be a challenge as the pressure (Master), cylinder does not quite pump the same as the brake cylinder. Pressure bleeding is the best way to go. Other wise let gravity do the work and make sure all the fluid is out. It is also possible for the pressure cylinder to be bad and just not pump for the full stroke as it should.

Try this! Pull the plunger rod off the arm. Now gently pump the clutch pedal. You should feel it bottom out when the driven piston runs out of room to travel.

Also make sure the pedal clevis and pin is good and the push rod properly adjusted. It is imperative that the pressure cylinder piston gets all the way home when the pedal is up. This is so the piston goes above the inlet port so fluid from the reservoir can flow in.

Dennis

-----Original Message----- From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On Behalf Of Wes Neuenschwander Sent: Saturday, May 2, 2015 5:49 PM To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM Subject: Re: 91 Westy - Mysterious Clutch/Transmission Problem

That's a very interesting piece of information, and good for all Vanagon owner's to be aware of. I'll definitely have the shop take a look at the replacement cylinder to see if that's the issue. Probably a bit of a long shot given that the problem occurred before the new slave cylinder was installed, but it's possible that the original problem was due to a failed slave cylinder and the 'new' replacement cylinder more or less emulated the problem. I will for sure have them check to see that the cylinder is moving the proper distance. Fortunately the shop owner owns four Vanagons of his own, so we will have several properly working examples to compare with. Should definitely go a long way to isolating the problem. If the hydraulics are working properly (as evidenced by the proper displacement of the slave cylinder when the pedal is displaced), then it obviously has to be something within the clutch system proper. Unfortunately, I'm not a mechanic (not even of the shade tree variety) so I can't even really imagine what could be the issue within the clutch mechanism.

It's really good to know though that there are some bogus clutch slave cylinders out there. Caveat emptor!

-Wes

-----Original Message----- From: phishman068@gmail.com [mailto:phishman068@gmail.com] Sent: Saturday, May 02, 2015 9:02 AM To: Wes Neuenschwander Cc: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM Subject: Re: 91 Westy - Mysterious Clutch/Transmission Problem

I recently went through the same thing and there's an obvious line in your statement that stands out to me, they just replaced the slave cylinder.

It has just come to my attention that some of the slave cylinders in one of the "good german brands" do not have a long enough rod, therefore their travel occurs mostly internally. Crap. In other words, your clutch isn't fully disengaging as a result of a part that's engineered wrong and sold as a replacement. In my case i machined a brass spaced that extended the throw by about 1cm and it made a huge difference.

Watch the clutch lever on the transmission actuate while someone pushes the pedal, make sure it's moving plenty.

-craig

> On May 2, 2015, at 11:21 AM, Wes Neuenschwander <wes.neuenschwander@COMCAST.NET> wrote: > > I have a '91 Westy with a fairly new/rebuilt engine (Go Westy) and > transmission, now with about 40,000 miles on the combo. The last few > years I've pretty much 'archived' the vehicle, keeping it in the > garage except for occasional road trips. I took it into my local VW > 'go-to' shop in Seattle (Fine Tuning Performance - absolutely > outstanding service on the vehicle for the last 20 or so years!) for > routine service (oil change, coolant flush and change, replace brake > and clutch fluid) and during the post-service test drive owner/head > guru Chris noticed difficulty in engaging the van in reverse. > > > > He thought the problem was most likely a failure in the clutch > hydraulics that was preventing the clutch from completely disengaging > (and since reverse has no syncro, the 'grinding' noise would only > occur in reverse). > They replaced the clutch slave cylinder (the master was replaced a > couple of years previously), but the problem persisted. Next step was > a clutch job, including replacing the idler bearing. Unfortunately, > it's still grinding when engaging reverse. Huge bummer, especially as > we were planning on heading out for a fishing/camping trip to a remote > area in NE Washington next week! > > > > If anyone has *any* ideas what could be causing this - persistent, and > now mystifying - problem, you suggestions would be *much* appreciated!! > > > > -Wes


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