Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2015 20:30:40 -1000
Reply-To: "SDF ( aka ;jim lahey' - Scott )" <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: "SDF ( aka ;jim lahey' - Scott )" <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Organization: Cosmic Reminders
Subject: Re: Engine hesitates upon take off
In-Reply-To: <CAEwp_cQd=zyA9+rLQpcV2KxnOpoKAteFsFBbmu1GsorNfJhbSA@mail.gmail.com>
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re 'hard to see on a sunny day' ...
that's why I do my best work at night !
or prefer to work at night ..one can see just fine with decent shop
lightening plus LED HeadLamp.
There's a picture in Bentley ( for diesel injector for sure ...possibly
for gasoline injector ...don't have a Bentley handy right now ) .
but the spray should look like it does in the picture in the book.
the injectors should not leak when not energized of course.
'the only' Actual Time I seen a clear injector problem ..
84 Vanagon in California ..
failed emissions test badly,
plus would idle irregularity.
Watching the injectors spray immediately reveal one awful one ..
whether spraying off to the side ..
or dribbling when not energized ..very obvious.
good used one fixed it easily ..passed smog etc.
( btw...ALL fuel systems should have 'some' fuel treatment added say a
couple times a year ..
I like SeaFoam for that a lot ..
I notice the on the side of the bottle of Marvel Mystery Oil it says
'fuel system lubricant.'
I'm a believer in high quality treatments for care of the beast ,
not to mask anything ...or try to compensate for anything ..but as a
life-extending fuel treatment.
I just LOVE how easy it is to hand the fuel rails outside the engine ..
crank 'er and watch spray pattern.
another handly way ..I prefer this ..grab a known good distributor,
**carefully** unplug the wire connection on the side of the distributor
installed in the engine .
plug in your hand-held distributor ..
turn on the key ..
turn distributor with your fingers while watching injectors spray.
what is real neat is each 1/4 turn of the distributor triggers the fuel
pump to run again for a few seconds..
and energizes the injectors to spray.
Super sweet test !
yup I hear ya on getting someone to really go nutty on it.
lol...let's say that's not profitable in the normal business sense..
and to have it done by 5 or 6 pm.
I 'cheat' ..I might put a dozen or more hours ..
a much more than that.
not to go on ...sent a Mercedes CIS-E fuel injection system to a shop
one time since they could do things on it I couldn't .
I asked the owner ..or head tech ..if there was ever a car he couldn't fix.
He said ...no there hasn't been one they couldn't eventully figure out ...
but it sometimes took a long, long time.
They also don't feel like they can charge say 40 hours shop time if
that's what it really took in the end.
if 'a component' is suspected...
it sure is nice to have a same version vanagon to swap parts back and
forth on.
lol.
check all grounds 5 times each.
I don't see spark plugs mentioned on your list.
when were they last visually inspected.
what type ?
some people claim multi-electrode spark plugs reduce emissions or
whatever 'better' they do ..
I do like platinum spark plugs .....though not Bosch ones.
most of the time I use conventional single electrode spark plugs and
never find the need for anything else.
I don't see where a sample of the fuel was taken.
I don't see where the fuel filter was emptied out backwards and contents
check for dirt, rust, tiny metal particles and signs of water.
Water in fuel can drive ya nuts ...has a particularily intermittant
characteristic.
Water in the fuel is unlikely ..but until it's been checked for ..ya know ?
Don't use Arco fuel btw.
enuf !
I have even read about special factory techs that go around to
dealerships to fix the newish cars that dealer techs can't.
On 6/18/2015 5:01 AM, Marc Perdue wrote:
> Scott,
>
> As always, that's good advice. Here's a little background on my
> particular issue. It has been happening pretty much since I've owned
> my van, which I think I bought in 2003. Not sure off the top of my
> head. Since that time, I have replaced (or had replaced; I didn't do
> the work) the transmission and engine, with a big valve engine from
> Boston Bob. I have methodically gone through this engine one step at a
> time trying to track this problem down. By now, I can't really
> remember everything that has been replaced and/or tested, but here's a
> partial list:
> AFM
> AFM boot
> Adjusted throttle switch
> Replaced idle control valve and module
> Replaced seals on gas tank
> Replaced all fuel lines, vacuum lines, and spark plug wires
> Tested fuel pressure regulator
> Replaced Temp II sensor
> Replaced O2 sensor
> Replaced entire exhaust system
> Checked timing
> Had valve lash set correctly (it wasn't set correctly when first installed)
> Watched the engine run in total darkness, even misting the spark plug
> wires to check for cracks
>
> So, I have gotten to the point of testing the fuel injection. And it's
> not very clear of what a good spray pattern actually should be when
> you're testing and it's a sunny day; the spray is hard to see. But one
> of them looked less than optimal compared to the others. So, I
> replaced them and it may or may not have fixed the problem.
>
> Frankly, Scott, I wish I had someone like you nearby to go through my
> van with a fine-toothed comb. Everybody I've taken it to proclaims
> what a great running van I have, after replacing a part or two or
> three, of course. But the problem is usually back the next day.
>
> Sigh...
> Marc
>
> On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 5:15 AM, SDF ( aka ;jim lahey' - Scott )
> <scottdaniel@turbovans.com> wrote:
>> the spray pattern of the injectos is exceptionally easy to test right on the
>> engine.
>> See Bentley.
>> I have rarely seen a genuinely bad-spary pattern waterboxer injector. ...a
>> few , but not many realy.
>>
>> the ecu fires all for injectors at once ..
>> like one 4-part injector. So doesn't matter which connector is on which
>> injector.
>>
>> which is kinda sloppy actually .......not very precise for sure.
>> given that every cylinder is on a different stroke at a given instant ..
>> it all works out ..just not very precise.
>>
>> There's an oppossed 4 cylinder engine that some people install very
>> successfuly in Vanagons with a much more modern engine management system
>> those have Sequential Fuel Injection ..
>> the ECU knows precisely where each cylinder is and the individual injection
>> for each cylinder if fired at exactly the correct tim for that cylinder -
>> nice.
>>
>> Anyway, not a big surprise to me that the new injectors did not make a big
>> difference.
>>
>> there's an old Rule from carburetor days ..
>> still applies ...
>> first you check *everything* about the engine mechanically ...compression
>> .....vacuum leaks ...unrstricted exhaust system ...air intake system
>> ....rocker arm adjustments etc...everything that is 'mechanical'.
>>
>> next check the ignition system very very carefully ....make sure that it is
>> all right ..strong spark, correct timing etc.
>> I've seen spark plug wires be 'it' a few times ...when it didn't seem like
>> it should be ..but it really was.
>> Watch the engine run in total darkness and look at the plug wires.
>>
>> then get into the fuel injection.
>> there are numerous pretty easy checks in Bentley .
>> doing those ..if nothing else you learn a lot and might discover something
>> in the process or even fix it.
>>
>> if there is the temptation to think it's One Thing..
>> resist that temptation.
>> I have seen countless cases of poor running or hesitation or running issues
>> where it was 5 half things, or more.
>> good luck !
>>
>> On 6/17/2015 2:20 PM, Marc Perdue wrote:
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> Well, today was overcast and in the low 80s, so I took off the
>> afternoon from work and installed my new fuel injectors. One of the
>> screws on the old injectors was so rusted I had to drill it out to get
>> the injector off without breaking the manifold. Because that took way
>> more time than it should have, I didn't get a chance to drive the van
>> today. It did, however, start up pretty quickly after I got everything
>> back together. At this point, I was just looking to see if there were
>> any leaks and if the van would start. No leaks! Yay!!
>>
>> One thing I realized as I was putting everything back together,
>> though, is that the connectors for the injectors aren't marked at all.
>> Does it matter which connector is connected to which injector? I tried
>> swapping the ones on the driver's side and it didn't seem to make any
>> difference.
>>
>> I'll let you all know the outcome after I've had a chance to drive it.
>> My gut feeling at this point is that there doesn't seem to be an
>> appreciable difference in the way the engine runs. We'll see . . .
>>
>> Marc Perdue, in central VA.
>>
>> On Mon, Jun 15, 2015 at 10:25 AM, Rick Cooper <rickdcooper@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I've noticed that when accelerating from an intersection, after sitting at
>> a red light, my 2.1 WBX will sometimes hesitate for 5 to 15 seconds. I'll
>> start moving, but the engine has no power and giving it more gas does
>> nothing. After those few seconds, the engine will start to pick up power
>> and soon everything will be running fine.
>>
>> This has just start happening and is still sporadic, but it is becoming
>> more frequent. Seems to only happen after a full stop, like at a red
>> light. Would this be a clogged fuel filter or what?
>>
>> Thanks for any ideas. FWIW, the fuel tank and the ECU were replaced a few
>> years ago.
>>
>> Rick
>>
>>
