Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2016 19:56:52 -0500
Reply-To: Dennis Haynes <d23haynes57@HOTMAIL.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Dennis Haynes <d23haynes57@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Dodged a bullet -- blowed the oil filter right off Long winded
In-Reply-To: <711353CE-331F-47F0-9945-9D23637A238C@gmail.com>
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That 2.10L engine is almost the same as the engines used in the Bus and Vanagon from 72 to 81. The 10w-30 would not be my choice for summer operation. The 5w-50 or 15w-50 would be better choices.
Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: Dennis Jowell [mailto:dennisjowell@gmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, January 3, 2016 7:30 PM
To: Dennis Haynes <d23haynes57@HOTMAIL.COM>
Cc: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
Subject: Re: Dodged a bullet -- blowed the oil filter right off Long winded
Forgot to add the Porsche is a 914 -4-1973 sorry long day moving snow!
Dennis,
What are your thoughts in using Mobil 1 15w-50 in my Porsche 1973 -2.0 engine ? I have always used 10w -30 regular oil in it. The engine has about only about 3000 miles on it. It is a rebuilt 2.0 engine. Haven't really driven it much. My plan is to work on getting it running again in the spring. It has sat in my barn for unfortunately several years after I rebuilt and refinished the body, the engine etc.
Dennis Jowell
Scotch Hollow Farm
Newbury, Vermont
> On Jan 3, 2016, at 12:38 PM, Dennis Haynes <d23haynes57@HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
>
> Oil pressure of 70-75psi is not of any concern. If not going above that as engine rpm increases means the relief valve is still in control. The 10w-40 especially the Mobil 1 is a great choice for that starting temperature range. If you want experiment replace that oil with a conventional 20w-50 and start the engine cold and immediately rev it up and watch that gauge get pegged. You may get it well over 100 psi. Do this long enough and the lifter may even pump up to much and the valves may float. Luckily even with that oil the shear and immediate heat from the heads will thin it out enough to let you go on your way.
>
> One of the major points of winter engine operation is to drive gently until the engines warms somewhat. I am not a fan of letting an engine idle to warm up in extremely cold weather 1 minute or two can help a lot. Also, the engine will warm faster if you avoid turning the heater fans on. Since the front heater uses outside air the interior will actually warm faster with the fan on a lower speed or if you just let the air from the van moving come in. I only use the front fan if I need it to clear the windows. Once on the highway it is off.
>
> Most oil filters including the cheapies have no problem handling 120-150 psi. The early inline 4 VW engines (non-hydraulic lifters), would operate around 90 psi even warm. I had a Porsche 924, (1979) years ago. I knew the oi filter was clogging when the pressure would drop to around 60 psi. yes this engine was so hard on oil the gunk and carbon or whatever would load it up. We were using it as a daily driver-commuter car. Fuel economy was outstanding. Back in those days Mobil 1 was only available in 5w-20. I found out quickly that VWs of the day didn’t like it trying it first in our 1976 Scirocco. When they introduced the 15w-50 that Porsche was my first trial. It completely eliminated the filter clogging issue. I tried to see how long it would go. After about 7,500 miles I was convinced. I went back to the Castrol 20w-50 and in less than 2,500 miles the filter was plugging up and pressure dropping again. I have been a Mobil 1 fan since. That was around 1985 or so.
>
> Anyway,
> There are a number of considerations for picking the correct oil for winter operation. The most important is lowest temperature at start up. You need it thin enough to let the engine start up and get to some level of warming up. Then depending on expected driving cycles and speeds you need a high enough viscosity to take that into account. If you’re a low speed driver and using it daily for short trips to the store then a 0w-30 is appropriate for those cold extremes. If you are using it for trips and plan to be on the interstate driving at high speeds like I do than you will need something heavier.
>
> The Water Boxer makes some challenges because regardless of outside temperatures with enough speed and load you can still get the oil over 210-220F. If you have an oil cooler and or you drive at moderate speeds an upper viscosity of 40 should do. If you are doing the 70-75 mph + you will likely need the 50 upper number.
>
> The water Boxer is one engine that benefits from both an oil pressure and temperature gauge. Especially on the 1.9L oil temperature does not always follow coolant temperature. If you added an oil cooler this will also tell you how well it is working. On the 1.9L or 2.1L with the stock cooler removed (my choice) you will also see how long it takes for the oil to warm up even after the coolant is warm. You will also find that most oil cooler thermostats begin to operate at ~160F and seem to be in full operation around 180F.
>
> There are a number of ways and measuring systems for oil Viscosity. A common one is Centistokes (cST). Now look at this product data sheet.
>
> http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/NAUSENPVLMOMobil1_15W-50.as
> px
>
> For a normal healthy engine designed like ours we want to be around 10-12 cST. You can see that this oil is 18 cST at 212F But note how it goes down to 4.5 mPa•s at 300F. If we go to a 0w-30 we go down to 3.5 mPa•s. Different rating system but you get the impact.
>
> http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/NAXXENPVLMOMobil_1_ESP_X1_0
> W-30.aspx
>
> So if we knew that we could always keep the oil at or below 212F we could use an SAE 30 for that upper number. Since we can't without a cooling system and monitoring we need a winter oil that goes to SAE 40.
>
> In really cold weather we may operate in that 120-200 range for extended periods so we want the lower number to take that into account. The 20w conventional oils do not help with startup and that excess viscosity also provides increased drag and pumping losses reducing fuel economy. Most consider 20F to be extreme lower limit for this oil. From experience I even get uncomfortable with the Mobil 1 15w-50 when temps are in the lower single digits.
>
> So for a conclusion, I know I am partial to synthetic. Cold weather usage is where they can really shine due to extended pour points. The wider viscosity index also helps to get us from -20 to 200 or more. The fact that they usually last longer and work better easily offsets the cost. So for that cold weather operation and daily use I would go with the 0w-40 or 5w-40. If you plan to go on long high speed trips consider the 5w-50. For warmer weather stick with the 15w-50 as this oil also has the extra stuff for flat tappet and high performance engines.
>
> Check out the link below. These are pictures of my gauges and speedometer during two separate Florida runs. The last three were taken 12-20. Do not that I am running 235-55/17 tires (27.2") and the GPS is indicating I am going 1 to 2 mph then the speedo is indicating. I have a 13 plate oil cooler in front of the radiator. It was about 40F outside and as soon as I slowed down the oil temperature would drop just below 180F. In hot weather with the AC on at those speeds I will see 210-220F. On these engines without oil coolers I have seen 240-250F. I once got a 1.9L to reach 270F. Note that the mileage is correct and this is still the original engine getting about 16 mpg.
>
> https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=9B02084A888884A6!97502&authkey=!
> AJwRHVoShXql5Rg&ithint=folder%2cjpg
>
> Dennis
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On
> Behalf Of Dave Mcneely
> Sent: Saturday, January 2, 2016 2:15 PM
> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
> Subject: Re: Dodged a bullet -- blowed the oil filter right off
>
> OK, so, two questions:
>
> 1. What oil pressure is too high? My gauge registers up to 80 psi. When cold at startup (like now) the gauge reads 70 - 75 psi. Following the owner's manual and previous advice, I drive it without warming it up. The temperature rises quickly, and the pressure drops to around 30 psi, varying with rpms. Is that initial 70-75 psi too high? Right now it has Mobil1 10W40 in it.
>
> 2. How cold is too cold? I don't have a thermometer in my shop or on the van exterior. Yesterday morning it was -1 F outside my shop. There was a little water, frozen but soft (sort of slushy) on the shop floor, so I think the shop temperature was higher than outside. The shop is insulated, but I haven't heated it so far. I guess the floor, being in earth contact, is warmer than the outside temperature, and heats the air inside a bit. I wouldn't think that -1 F would be too cold, and I have driven the van for 6 years now, including when temperatures were that cold or colder. Before last winter, I used Castrol 20W50 year round, and the oil pressure readings were similar to now. I switched to the Mobil1 when I moved to Spokane from Oklahoma, figuring winters are colder here as a rule. Around 0 F was generally the winter minimum in Oklahoma. I am thinking I might try the new Mobil1 5W50 next oil change, if I can get it.
>
> mcneely
> ---- Mark Tuovinen <aksyncronaut@GMAIL.COM> wrote:
>> As always Dennis provides accurate and valuable insight to Vanagon
>> lubrication. Let me add one note to what he has said, "pour point"
>> is just that and does not mean that your van will not have issues
>> when starting in the cold even with oil rated for the temperature.
>> Oil in your cold engine is being pumped under pressure and even
>> synthetic oil when cold yet at temperatures above pour point will
>> blow seals often the oil cooler o-ring goes first. It is common for
>> Vanagon owners that drive year round up here to run oil that is Ow or
>> 5w at the lower end during winter and switch to 15w or 20w for
>> summer. When we shipped our Westy down to Daryl in November of 2011
>> prior to our road trip I warned the transporter to not to start it
>> without first warming it up, as it was below zero, even with oil rated for the temperature.
>> They of course did not listen and promptly blew out the oil cooler
>> o-ring. Due to time constraints it ended up being shipped it that
>> condition and Matt and/or Daryl had the joy of fixing it upon arrival
>> so that we would not be delayed departing on our trip as we had time
>> deadlines to meet. If you are going to start your engine in cold
>> temperatures use an engine heater, its better for your engine, your bank account, and the environment.
>>
>> Mark in AK (balmy, warm AK so far this winter!)
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 31, 2015 at 11:38 AM, Dennis Haynes
>> <d23haynes57@hotmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Except for their motor cycle oils I am not aware of a 20w-50 Mobil 1.
>>>
>>> https://mobiloil.com/~/media/amer/us/pvl/files/pdfs/mobil-1-oil-prod
>>> uct-specs-guide.pdf
>>>
>>> Note page 2 has both the 15w-50 and now there is a 5w-50 oil available.
>>> For winter and in my non-vanagon European cars I was using the 0w-40
>>> European formulae. Now that the 5w-50 is available that will be my
>>> winter oil for the Vanagons. I live in New York.
>>>
>>> The Vanagon viscosity chart is just a bit dated but outside of some
>>> confusing items it is a good start. For winter operation the
>>> viscosity ratings are a bit limited. The SAE ratings are based on
>>> viscosities at a given temperature. Of the two numbers listed the
>>> lower (W) is related to the oils viscosity at 40C, (104F) and the
>>> higher number is reference at 100C (212F). The next important factor
>>> is the viscosity index. This is how the oil changes viscosity with
>>> temperature outside this range. For cold weather operation the next
>>> and most important rating is the pour point. At what temperature
>>> does the oil get so thick it cannot flow. Since most conventional oils have some waxes in the base this is a limiting factor.
>>> Think of Diesel fuel when it get so cold it starts to get wax
>>> crystals blocking filters and stopping engines from starting or
>>> worse shutting down while traveling. Most pump Diesel gets treated
>>> for cold weather use and truckers know to address this on their own.
>>>
>>> This is where the synthetic oil can really shine. Even the high
>>> viscosity
>>> 15w-50 has a pour point of -39c, (-38.2F). This compares to the
>>> Castrol GTX
>>> 20w-50 of only -27C, (-16.6F). Also note the Mobil viscosity index
>>> is 160 as compared to the Castrol's 123.
>>>
>>> I have to go now. I'll be back with some winter engine operation tips.
>>>
>>> Dennis
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On
>>> Behalf Of Rocket J Squirrel
>>> Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2015 12:17 PM
>>> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
>>> Subject: Re: Dodged a bullet -- blowed the oil filter right off
>>>
>>> Well now. Let's look at my best choice for oil for this neck of the woods.
>>>
>>> Summers here can easily hit 100 degrees F during the day and an
>>> overnight freeze is not unusual. Winters can go into the minus teens F.
>>>
>>> The chart in the Owner's Manual shows for multigrade oils: 15F to
>>> 85F
>>>
>>> SAE20W-50 & SAE20W-40: 10F to 85F
>>> SAE15W-50 & SAE15W-40: 5F to 85F
>>> SAE10W-30: -5F to 60F
>>> SAE5W-20 & SAE5W-30: -20F to 15F
>>>
>>> I use Mobil-1 20W-50 for summer, 10W-30 for winter.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Jack "Rocket j Squirrel" Elliott
>>> 1984 Westfalia, auto trans,
>>> Bend, Ore.
>>>
>>>> On 12/29/2015 10:07 PM, Tom Hargrave wrote:
>>>> The manual already exists - Haynes is one of the publisher's.
>>>>
>>>> If you run multi-grade oil, like 10W-40 or 10W-30 you should not
>>>> need to
>>> swap summer and winter oils. That's why multi-grade oils exist.
>>>>
>>>> And BTW, it's nice to know what actually happened to your filter -
>>> thanks.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks, Tom Hargrave
>>>> www.kegkits.com
>>>> www.stir-plate.com
>>>> www.towercooler.com
>>>> www.grow-sun.com
>>>> www.raspberryproject.com
>>>> http://goo.gl/niRzVw
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM] On
>>>> Behalf Of eve Appleton
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2015 10:20 PM
>>>> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
>>>> Subject: Re: Dodged a bullet -- blowed the oil filter right off
>>>>
>>>> Would someone please write an instructional book. Forget the
>>>> bentley,
>>> obviously meant for the elitely mechanic minded... One which tells
>>> us to shift oil weights in the winter. 3 hrs waiting for a flatbed today on 167.
>>> Was on my way to work which is why i got the westy to begin with.
>>> $300 poorer (work loss), I'm hearing for the first time to lighten
>>> my oil weight in winter? GDit! What good is a maintenance budget if
>>> info like this slips thru the cracks?
>>>> Granted: turns out my exhaust pipe bracket let loose n whacked my
>>>> oil filter. Huge white plume of smoke, work loss, a freeze to the
>>>> bones 3 hr tow wait, n another 3 hrs more at mechanic (where i do
>>>> considerable amt of the work), I'm left with uncertainty about the
>>>> state of my rings or valves. !##%!@€€**#! Is there an older lonely
>>>> gent out there who's mechanically literate n open to union based on
>>>> vanagon love? I'm seriously considering pimping myself. I just
>>>> can't quit my van but need a preventative relationship, which
>>>> nurtures reliability for my love of work. It's the idiot guide or
>>>> prostitution. Given the latter comes with possibly restrictive
>>>> consequences, would someone please !!!! write the damn idiot
>>>> manual. In seriously frustrated joy, tongue in cheek, though not
>>>> really.... eve
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Dec 28, 2015 at 4:01 PM, Rocket J Squirrel<
>>> camping.elliott@GMAIL.COM> wrote: Okay, so it's my fault, but I think I
>>> lucked out.
>>>>
>>>> As temperatures drop down the freezing, and below, I change my
>>>> engine
>>> oil to 10-40, a thinner grade. But this winter I got lazy. I admit
>>> it, I got lazy.
>>>>
>>>> Well, one cold morning last week I started the van and trundled
>>>> down the
>>> street to go downtown, and was about a 1/2 mile from home when I
>>> noticed that the idiot light for the oil pressure was lit. And the
>>> aftermarket oil pressure gauge I installed a few years ago was at
>>> zero. They don't share the same sender or anything so I knew it was serious.
>>>>
>>>> I pulled off the main road and got out and looked behind the van
>>>> and
>>> sure enough, a trail of oil behind me leading up to a small puddle
>>> under the engine.
>>>>
>>>> Triple-A flatbedded the van to Gary's Ole Volks Home here in Bend,
>>>> and
>>> after an hour he called me and said that the oil filter had plain
>>> blowed off.
>>>>
>>>> So here's what happened: at these low temperatures, I reckon that
>>>> the
>>> thicker summer oil was as thick as pine sap -- maybe amber --
>>> resulting in very high oil pressure.
>>>>
>>>> The oil filter was not the stock one that I use. I installed a
>>> tencentlife oil cooler kit a few years ago, and it uses a banjo
>>> fitting that goes between the filter and the engine for oil send and
>>> receive (thermostat in there, too). The stock filter is too long to
>>> fit and he recommends a Bosch 3300, which I have been using.
>>>>
>>>> But the last time I replaced the filter, when I switched from
>>>> winter to
>>> summer oil, the auto parts store was out of stock on the Bosch, and
>>> they offered the Wix. I never heard of Wix, but the guy said it was
>>> a good brand, so hey.
>>>>
>>>> Well, the mechanic was consternated by the shorter filter, said it
>>>> was
>>> the wrong one, and that the threads looked like pipe threads. I
>>> picked up a new Bosch on my way over and took at look at the Wix,
>>> comparing it to the Bosch, and the threads in the Wix looked pretty poor.
>>>>
>>>> So I think I lucked out here. That high oil pressure was gonna blow
>>>> out
>>> something, I'm just glad that it was a $6 oil filter. Otherwise, $75
>>> for the work, nothing (other than subscription to Triple-A) for the
>>> tow. It could have been a lot worse.
>>>>
>>>> Engine sounds fine, I hope no damage was done.
>>>>
>>>> And what's the lesson, kids? Don't skip maintenance. And distrust
>>>> Wix
>>> filters.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Jack "Rocket j Squirrel" Elliott
>>>> 1984 Westfalia, auto trans,
>>>> Bend, Ore.
>>>>
>>>> -----
>>>> No virus found in this message.
>>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>>>> Version: 2016.0.7294 / Virus Database: 4489/11256 - Release Date:
>>>> 12/25/15
>
> --
> David McNeely
| 
