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Date:         Thu, 28 Jan 2016 22:35:03 -0500
Reply-To:     Dennis Haynes <d23haynes57@HOTMAIL.COM>
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From:         Dennis Haynes <d23haynes57@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Cold starting oil report Mobil 1 15w-50 Now 5w-50
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"


So I finally got around to changing the oil to the 5w-50. This morning it
was ~20F. After starting the engine the oil pressure was just above 60 psi.
I let the engine idle a bit while I scraped the frost off the windows.
Driving and going through the gears the oil pressure never made it to 75
psi.  This was an improvement. After getting it all warmed up the oil temp
was still around 165. Oil pressure seemed to be real close to what I was
seeing with the 15w-50. So for winter use this 5w-50 seems to be a much
better choice. Now I just need to get some warm weather and see how this oil
holds up when it gets hotter. Mid-February it will be going to Florida
again. Let's see what happens then.


Dennis




-----Original Message-----
From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On Behalf Of
Dennis Haynes
Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2016 9:49 PM
To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
Subject: Re: Cold starting oil report Mobil 1 15w-50


I have a number of customers that are well over 200K on the original engines
except for heads and/or head gaskets. As for skill I can't take much credit
for this one except for the oil cooler and Mobil 1. If only the transmission
would hold up as well as the engine. Except for water pumps, tune up items,
and valve covers that rusted through this engine has only had one repair. At
one time the push rod for the #1 intake valve popped out of the rocker cup.
Yes it leaks some oil at the flywheel seal (again) but it doesn't smoke or
knock. Last two NY to Florida trips it lost about a quart in 2,500 miles.
The heads have never been off and last time I checked the compression and
did a leak down test it was good.


The water boxer in many ways is an excellent engine. I have yet to see one
actually just plain wear out. Every failure I have seen has been the result
of some past trauma or ongoing problem that did it in. If I had to point to
one cause, all failures are the result of a fluid or fluid system failing.
That includes the fuel or fuel system. Next is incorrect basic settings and
then occasionally outright abuse. Once we jump into the rebuild, overhaul,
or major repair experience we get to add defective or incorrect parts,
improper assembly, re-using something that shouldn't be, (and that includes
the case),  and not fixing the cause of the original failure.


Dennis




-----Original Message-----
From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On Behalf Of
Stuart MacMillan
Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2016 11:48 AM
To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
Subject: Re: Cold starting oil report Mobil 1 15w-50


Shows what a real mechanic can do starting with an OEM WBX!  You are likely
the only one.


Stuart


-----Original Message-----
From: Dennis Haynes [mailto:d23haynes57@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2016 9:04 PM
To: 'Stuart MacMillan'; vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
Subject: RE: Cold starting oil report Mobil 1 15w-50


I'm using the VDO electric, 0-150 psi. Here is a link to the speedo-tach and
gauge readings while driving from New York to Florida this past December.
Tires are 235/55-17 and the GPS indicates 1-2 mph faster than the
speedometer.


https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=9B02084A888884A6!86171&authkey=!ACrZ3v
qP5h-K2Lc&ithint=folder%2cjpg




Dennis




-----Original Message-----
From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On Behalf Of
Stuart MacMillan
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2016 10:26 PM
To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
Subject: Re: Cold starting oil report Mobil 1 15w-50


Still impressively high.  Are you using the VDO electronic sender or a
manual oil line type gauge?  I've had electronic VDO gauges on four
different WBXs.  A worn out engine, a production machine shop rebuilt core I
got from a junkyard in the '90s that had 35K on it, and the two I work on
now, my worn out '85 and my son's strong 150k '87.  Never seen over 60 psi
at cold start.  The last two still have that, but drop rapidly to the 20's
when hot @ 3000 rpm using RedLine 20w-50. My '85 idles hot at 8 psi, and the
'87 around 10 psi.


Another reason I'm switching both to a Subaru engine at some point.


Stuart


-----Original Message-----
From: Dennis Haynes [mailto:d23haynes57@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2016 5:38 PM
To: 'Stuart MacMillan'; vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
Subject: RE: Cold starting oil report Mobil 1 15w-50


The oil pressure gauge is connected to the port between the cam bearings on
the left side of the engine. When it is cold and the oil is thick enough
that it doesn't flow it doesn't matter where the gage is, the reading will
be the same. The oil temperature sensor is in the plug for the oil pressure
relief valve. Yes I drilled, counter sunk, and tapped that plug to get the
temp sensor in the middle so it is covered with oil. Being the original
owner of Fun Bus the gauges were installed almost immediately after
purchase. After the first trip ~400 miles each way it was apparent for my
driving style oil cooling was needed even with the factory oil t water heat
exchanger. The 84 I had previously was set up with an oil cooler and I was
surprised the 2.1L still needed help if not more.


The factory oil pressure relief valve is typically set to limit oil pressure
to about 60 psi. With very thick oil and high enough RPM its flow limit is
taxed and pressure will continue to rise some. Reaching a peak of 90 psi for
a short time is still not of concern. Many of the in line VW and Audi
engines (non-hydraulic lifters), ran near that pressure even hot. I get
concerned as you go north of 100 or 125 and keep climbing. Oversize oil
pumps, modified relief valves, springs, etc. can do all sorts of damage.


The point of my report was to soften fears of using the 15w-50 for winter
operation for the occasional winter use. My oil pressure staying high is
mostly due to it being kept cool, in my opinion tool cool. In normal weather
it will run ~180 to 190 and the oil pressure will be lower. Typically around
15 psi at idle and 40-50 highway. On very hot days and especially with the
AC on the oil temp will often get to 210. At this point 35-45 on highway is
what I'll see.


Many rebuilt engines have oil pressure problems due to the engine case being
worn out and that not being properly addressed. These cases are consumable.
After major overheats and excessive abuse from lugging and over revving the
bearing bores are shot. Bad crankshaft grinding and rod rebuilding makes
things worse.


It is warmer tonight so I am now going to change the oil to the Mobil 1
5w-50 and see how it works. I am interested to see how it does when the warm
weather is here.


Dennis






-----Original Message-----
From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On Behalf Of
Stuart MacMillan
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2016 11:56 AM
To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
Subject: Re: Cold starting oil report Mobil 1 15w-50


Impressive.  Where are you measuring the oil pressure? At the pump from the
bypass plate to your cooler or at the tap on the case?  I've never seen a
WBX go above 60 psi cold measured at the case, and it soon drops into the
twenties. And that includes a fresh professional rebuild.


Stuart


-----Original Message-----
From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On Behalf Of
Dennis Haynes
Sent: Monday, January 25, 2016 7:42 PM
To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
Subject: Cold starting oil report Mobil 1 15w-50


So Fun Bus still has the 15w-50 oil in it. According to the Thermostat with
remote outside sensor this morning it was 12F. Due to the snow and my having
the Nokian WRG3 tires (235/55-17XL) and it being a Syncro I decided to take
it to work.


Turning the key the GoWesty starter turned the engine over with authority
and it fired right up. Oil pressure immediately went to ~80psi. I let it
warm up while I scrapped the windows, set up my phone to play music and then
off I went. I was driving gently as the roads were still covered with hard
pack ice and some snow. A few times the pressure made it to 90 psi. Once I
made it to the highway service road (~1 mile) the pressure was dropping
already. In ~2 miles I was getting it up to highway speed and the oil
pressure was going down under 70 psi.  After about 6 miles total the coolant
was near temp and the oil temp was catching up. With the oil cooler 165F or
so is all the oil will go up to. Oil pressure in this state is about 25 psi
at idle and near 60 at speed. This is for an engine at 290K.






BTW I love the way the Nokians work in this mess.






Dennis
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