Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2016 23:09:31 -1000
Reply-To: "SDF ( aka ;jim lahey' - Scott )" <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: "SDF ( aka ;jim lahey' - Scott )" <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Organization: Cosmic Reminders
Subject: Re: Cuts off on startup
In-Reply-To: <CAOBs5F53tP0hBvUpp8VLkQcyXM_RUVsWu6W6iQBgW-q9XuBKXw@mail.gmail.com>
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I was just thinkinga about this ...
all the various things that have to be right for a 2.1 waterboxer to
work exactly perfectly, and they absolutely can start perfectly and
instantly, go just fine from cold, be smooth, go well etc etc.
It just takes a while to get them there sometimes.
( just went through getting two 2.1's running after full 'new' assembly
and installation .
One of them included installing ALL the 2.1 stuff , like ecu harness and
'all that' as it had a weird non-waterboxer engine conversion previously,
plus one more that started, died, started a time or two, then was
dead..had to get that running. )
so here is stuff to check and adjust for a 2.1 waterboxer engine .
1. Throttle Switch ..it MUST be making contact at idle. They are seldom
checked or adjusted. They get off over time. Eventually correct
adjustment can't be reach and the little arm on the micro switch needs a
little tweak-bend.
The shaft bushings get really worn ...making a smooth return to zero
throttle iffy.
2. intake leaks ..there can not be ANY intake leaks ! I've found LOTS
of those ..especially intake runner boots , plenum, throttle body seal, etc.
two easy tests...listen EVERYWHERE with a listening tube held to yer
ear. Any hissing....it's easy to tell when you've found one.
Spray around with carb cleaner..any stumble or change in idle, there's a
leak there.
I have not done the same test with propane, but that is another way.
The 'modern official' way to find intake leaks ..which can be very
difficult to track down, is with a Smoke Machine , just for that purpose.
3. need 4 cylinders of decent compression. I have seen about ..oh ...a
thousand, no joke, opposed 4 cylinder VW van or bus engines with lowish
compression on # 3. It's like 150, 160, # 3 is 90, then 150 for # 3.
An engine like that can still start and run well tho. But it's ALWAYS
good to check.
4. Ignition timing ..needs to be pretty right. People are often tempted
to advance it a bit too much ..don't. A few degrees...fine, but not 10
for sure.
Check that the timing advances, which is controlled by the ECU. I have
never seen one that did not advance the timing , fwiw.
5. Distributor Hall Sender..this is more for 'no start' and cutting out
at speed. The Hall Senders fail or get intermittent eventually.
Replacement is the correct repair - the Hall Sender.
The plastic plug on the side, those get brittle and break ..then the
little harness pulls on the wires inside the distributor, not good.
5.5 Coil. I barely believe in faulty coils, but it does happen.
Eventually they get old and weak. I don't think I've seen an outright
dead one. I have a few known good ones so for my own cars I just pop
one of those on. Not sure that I've ever bought a new one in my life.
I have replaced a few though ...one ever decade maybe.
5.5 Ground wire for distributor harness....it's right next to the
distributor. That needs to be clean and tight.
AS DO ALL GROUNDS ! ...ground cable on left cylinder head, ground cable
at nose of trans to frame,
ground wire next to ecu under the back seat.
6. generally electrical and electronic connections. If I have any plug
off for any reason ....I spray it with electrical contact cleaner
without exception.
7. Temp Sensor II. The blue one. I seldom find a bad one ...check
resistance cold and at warmed up.
Contact there is not usually an issue, but always consider soundness of
all electrical/electronic connection.
8 Air Flow Meter. I have only seen AFM's get 'dodgey' ....surgey
..uneven. I've seen a dead spot Right At 3,100 rpm a few times. I have
never seen one prevent starting or running well from cold .
But they do wear out and get funky. It's a fundamental weakness..you
have an interface of something mechanical ( sweeper arm in the AFB ) and
a electrical circuit. In All Cases of something mechanical interfacing
with something mechanical ..it's a fundamental weakness.
< of note..the next air sensing device up the food chain, the Air Mass
Meter has No mechanical things touching anything ...brilliant. Air
flowing over tiny wires changes their resistance and the computer reads
that. It even can compensate for humidity and barometric pressure. A
regular Air Flow Meter is quite crude in comparison. >
I have never seen an incorrectly reading Air Temp Sensor in an AFM..
though it's in the book.
9. ECU ...I've only seen them not work .........like they are either
ok, or dead. It's really smart to have a known good spare. Try it out as
soon as you get it, mark them so you can tell which is which . I always
have a known good spare on board.
10. fuel pump, fuel pressure, fuel tank, fuel pressure regulator. In
all cases of not running right..
the fuel filter should be removed, and emptied out backwards on a clean
dish to see what's in it..
I find dirt, water, and and tiny metal particles. And check how
restricted the filter is. It's practical to just put on a new fairly
original type ( not a cheapo ) just to not have to do this messy toxic
job again.
I do find water in the fuel once in a great while. That can be a
weird one ...like engine works right sometimes, not others.
Fuel pressure ....usually not an issue. I found maybe two bad fuel
pressure regulators in a dozen years.
Fuel pumps ...those last 'forever' ..but not really really totally
indefenitly.
fuel tanks get old and clog up.
Fuel pressure has to be about right.
11. Vacuum line to the fuel pressure regulator. Those fall off or crack.
Easy to check. Check **ALL vacuum lines**carefully.
12. Air Intake Boot .those last super well. On a rare occasion one will
crack and leak air and result in very poor and uneven running..
Sometimes they just get loose at one end from the clamp not being
tightened carefully.
13. Spark plug wires. Last really really well. On a rare occasion they
can be faulty, and it's hard to tell.
if old, say 5 to 10 or more years, they are suspect.
clever tests ...observe the engine run in total darkness...if you see
tiny sparks running around ...plug wires are leaking.
at a smooth idle..spray wires down with fine mist of water..any
stumbling or change...yup, plug wires.
14. Spark plugs. Eventually their gaps grow large and the electrodes get
rounded edges. They are not a weak spot in Waterboxer engines. I have
dozens of sets left over from engine conversions. I haven't bought a new
set of spark plugs in years. Inspect them yes, gap them sure. If worn,
replace them, not a weak area at all if using decent brand plugs.
15. tune up parts...a real Bosch distributor cap and rotor in my
experience last 'forever'. If you see a cheapo some other brand, not
good. On rare occasion dist. caps develop cracks. Look for signs or
arcing or cracks.
Don't use cheap parts !
16. Idle control valve and control unit for it. A dead or faulty
Control Unit is pretty common. I had one that would idle at 2,000+ rpm
cold. Tried another one from one of my other 2.1 systems ...yep
...faulty Control Unit. The good one shot to maybe 1,500 rpm and
immediately settled into a nice normal idle rpm.
I just read today on here....The Valve ..hard to find, coils burn out in
them , something like that.
You want that system working.
17. Oxygen sensor . The Oxygen Sensor does not come into play until
engine is warmed up some.
if in doubt, disconnect it, then see how things run.
Lots of vanagons are running around with dead 02 sensors. They run all
right, run a little rich that way, burn more fuel.
Test the voltage output with engine warmed up. 02 sensors can be
working, lazy, or dead.
You want nice swinging voltage , like .2 to .8 volts , warmed up engine
running, circuit connected. If you see s steady say .5 or .6
volts..it's dead. If it doesn't move a lot, it's tired and lazy.,
18. Exhaust leaks. There must not be any exhaust leaks. Leaks at an
exhaust port will contribute to burning that exhaust valve. Exhaust
leaks near the 02 sensor can mess with the sensor's readings.
< had one guy come from 300 miles away in a 91 Carat ...
very late model van ...l
Lol..he tells me he's married and has 4 children and this is his only
car...I say ..you CAN NOT have that life situation and a Vanagon for
your only car !
Anyway ..he says he paid $ 600 for a new distributor with a german
mechanic TWICE ..and now, Again, it's cutting out.
I look at it. I find the throttle switch not making contact, and exhaust
leaks right near the Oxygen sensor. I fix and adjust those...check a few
other things ...timing probably. We drive it, it runs fine.
He's skeptical ...says "I'm going to drive this ALL OVER town tomorrow,
and if acts up I'm coming back."
He didn't come back.
On a waterboxer engine ..ALL the Details have to be Pretty Darn Right.
About 25 things, at least. .
19. Cat ( Cat and Muffler ) Cats fail, clog up, and can clog and
restrict running, sometimes intermediately. Same for muffler, tho that
is very rare. But failed cats....fairly common. Usual simptom is very
low power, won't rev out like it should .
20. Thermostat. Doesn't affect starting or cold operation . But
..thermostat MUST be working and keeping engine up to proper temp !!
It Must run at 180ish F. Must. Use good German ones, Whaler or Behr.
Countless Vanagons are running too cool. I like the hotter one for
winter, the cooler one for summer.
21. Injectors . I have about 12 running cars, 7 of them vanagons.
Naturally I don't get to drive many of them that much. I would Not Dream
of not adding a good fuel additive now and then. Seafoam ...that's The
One in my opinion. Also, Sta-bill for any gasoline engine that sits.
The fuel should be treated once in a while, couple times a year.
Mostly the injectors are not a weak area. In 15 years of full time
vanagon work I found one dribbling at idle,
causing a failed smog test.
They're very easy to test for leakage and spray pattern. Not a weak
area, just something that should be considered .
22. Vanagon Syndrome. Google it. I've never seen an actual case, but
if I have the Adapter Harness, I run it .
23. I'm sure there's more, that I'll think of later or others will think
of.
oh...here's what it is ! ! :
It is literally................."A blockage or leakage of fluids or
electrons."
< many people don't realize that 'fluids' does not mean just
liquids...also means air, vacuum , exhaust etc.
So somewhere ..or in multiple places ..some electrons are not going
where they should ..
some device that has some fluid involved....vacuum, air, exhaust etc. is
not doing or seeing the right thing.>
_________________________________________________________________________________________
Re general understanding of the system ...( especially for a no start
situation ) .
Pretty simple actually.
it's like the ECU is the brain, and the distributor is the Heart.
The human on the ignition switch starts a sequence..
'On' wakes up the ECU via the Main Relay and I believe wakes up the
distributor,
and for several seconds, the ecu supplies ground the Fuel Pump Relay to
energize it, so there is some fuel pre--pressure.
( of note, it is Never really right to just hop in and turn the key to
'start' !
What is right, is ..turn it to on, listen for the fuel pump to run and
then shut off, and observe warning lights working. It's in the Owner's
Manual about the warning lights.
Many an oil pressure warning light and system are not working..
people never notice....lots of engines ruined that way.
THEN...turn it to start.
the starter causes the engine and distributor to turn and make ignition
with the coil .
The ecu sees the distributor turning ..
and energizes the injectors , all 4 at once. Cheaply, the injectors are
not sequentially fired or even timed to intake stroke . So if you see
injector pulse at one injector, they are all probably being pulsed.
here's a Real Easy and Quick way to diagnose a no-start ..( engine
cranks but won't fire )
Grab your known-good spare distributor,
unplug the wires on the side of the engine's distributor and plug that
into the known--good distributor in your hand.
Rig up the high voltage coil wire from the coil where it can spark to
ground.
Put a NOID light ( google it ) on one injector connector.
< the above takes about one or two minutes to do, or only a few >
Turn on the key,
go back to the engine,
turn the distributor in your hands with your fingers.
what you should see...every quarter turn ..
3 things happen ..a zap of the coil wire,
a flash of the NOID light,
and the fuel pump runs a few seconds.
if it does those three things..
and there's fuel to the injectors and ignition timing is about right,
and there's pressurized fuel to the injectors, it sure should run.
I just did that in about 5 minutes on one of my vans..an 85 ..it was a
worn out/dead original distributor. Had it running in about 10 or 15
minutes total.
lots of other things could be not quite right of course..say temp Sensor
II ...but with those 3 happening plus fuel pressure. ..it should at
least fire .
And ignition timing has to be roughly where it belongs. If it cranks
with harsh resistance, the timing is probably much too advance. Just
turn the distributor clockwise some.
OK< way long enuf !
It's NOT replacing parts !
in fact, it's often not 'a part' .
It's testing, checking, inspecting, cleaning, and adjusting. And once in
a while you'll find a faulty or dead or just too tired part,
but mostly, the parts are very well made ..at least originally.
Things wear and change gradually.
Beware they shop that says 'we have to tune it up first before we can
diagnose fuel injection.
That's bull. Sure the tune parts must be inspected, and tired ones
replaced..
but 'tune up' ...disgusting term, as the cars are pretty self-tuning ..
Any modern competent shop won't even use that term 'tune up.'
I have seen countless cases of shops that tossed in an air filter
element, some cheap plug wires and plugs that didn't make any
difference at all, and just took the person's money.
Gash ...they might have to ACTUALLY inspect and test, and THINK to fix it !
low battery gotta go !
Scott
On 3/9/2016 5:18 PM, PB wrote:
> I've had my 90 Westy automatic since 2007. Up until this past summer, the
> van would start up and idle beautifully, and I could drive it right away.
> Now, roughly since this past fall, all of a sudden I have to sit and give
> it gas for 5 or 10 minutes before I can go anywhere. After it's "warmed
> up" it drives perfectly and idles perfectly when stopped.
>
> I've had regular routine maintenance done by mechanics, but this just seems
> to have started out of nowhere. What needs to be done?
>
> Patti
> 90 Westy Automatic
> 117,000 miles
> Los Angeles
>
>
