Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2016 14:04:42 -0700
Reply-To: Rick Cooper <rickdcooper@GMAIL.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Rick Cooper <rickdcooper@GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Cuts off on startup
In-Reply-To: <56E3DCCB.5070904@turbovans.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Just want to say thanks to Scott as well for putting these notes together.
I've printed them out and will go through them next time I give my vanagon
a 'tune-up' (that's what I call it anyway!) A lot of the items in your
list would have never occurred to me as warranting attention. This
collection of good advice based on long experience is really appreciated.
Rick
On Sat, Mar 12, 2016 at 1:09 AM, SDF ( aka ;jim lahey' - Scott ) <
scottdaniel@turbovans.com> wrote:
> I was just thinkinga about this ...
> all the various things that have to be right for a 2.1 waterboxer to
> work exactly perfectly, and they absolutely can start perfectly and
> instantly, go just fine from cold, be smooth, go well etc etc.
> It just takes a while to get them there sometimes.
>
> ( just went through getting two 2.1's running after full 'new' assembly
> and installation .
> One of them included installing ALL the 2.1 stuff , like ecu harness and
> 'all that' as it had a weird non-waterboxer engine conversion previously,
> plus one more that started, died, started a time or two, then was
> dead..had to get that running. )
> so here is stuff to check and adjust for a 2.1 waterboxer engine .
>
> 1. Throttle Switch ..it MUST be making contact at idle. They are seldom
> checked or adjusted. They get off over time. Eventually correct
> adjustment can't be reach and the little arm on the micro switch needs a
> little tweak-bend.
> The shaft bushings get really worn ...making a smooth return to zero
> throttle iffy.
>
> 2. intake leaks ..there can not be ANY intake leaks ! I've found LOTS
> of those ..especially intake runner boots , plenum, throttle body seal,
> etc.
> two easy tests...listen EVERYWHERE with a listening tube held to yer
> ear. Any hissing....it's easy to tell when you've found one.
> Spray around with carb cleaner..any stumble or change in idle, there's a
> leak there.
> I have not done the same test with propane, but that is another way.
> The 'modern official' way to find intake leaks ..which can be very
> difficult to track down, is with a Smoke Machine , just for that purpose.
>
> 3. need 4 cylinders of decent compression. I have seen about ..oh ...a
> thousand, no joke, opposed 4 cylinder VW van or bus engines with lowish
> compression on # 3. It's like 150, 160, # 3 is 90, then 150 for # 3.
> An engine like that can still start and run well tho. But it's ALWAYS
> good to check.
>
> 4. Ignition timing ..needs to be pretty right. People are often tempted
> to advance it a bit too much ..don't. A few degrees...fine, but not 10
> for sure.
> Check that the timing advances, which is controlled by the ECU. I have
> never seen one that did not advance the timing , fwiw.
>
> 5. Distributor Hall Sender..this is more for 'no start' and cutting out
> at speed. The Hall Senders fail or get intermittent eventually.
> Replacement is the correct repair - the Hall Sender.
> The plastic plug on the side, those get brittle and break ..then the
> little harness pulls on the wires inside the distributor, not good.
>
> 5.5 Coil. I barely believe in faulty coils, but it does happen.
> Eventually they get old and weak. I don't think I've seen an outright
> dead one. I have a few known good ones so for my own cars I just pop
> one of those on. Not sure that I've ever bought a new one in my life.
> I have replaced a few though ...one ever decade maybe.
>
> 5.5 Ground wire for distributor harness....it's right next to the
> distributor. That needs to be clean and tight.
> AS DO ALL GROUNDS ! ...ground cable on left cylinder head, ground cable
> at nose of trans to frame,
> ground wire next to ecu under the back seat.
>
> 6. generally electrical and electronic connections. If I have any plug
> off for any reason ....I spray it with electrical contact cleaner
> without exception.
>
> 7. Temp Sensor II. The blue one. I seldom find a bad one ...check
> resistance cold and at warmed up.
> Contact there is not usually an issue, but always consider soundness of
> all electrical/electronic connection.
>
> 8 Air Flow Meter. I have only seen AFM's get 'dodgey' ....surgey
> ..uneven. I've seen a dead spot Right At 3,100 rpm a few times. I have
> never seen one prevent starting or running well from cold .
> But they do wear out and get funky. It's a fundamental weakness..you
> have an interface of something mechanical ( sweeper arm in the AFB ) and
> a electrical circuit. In All Cases of something mechanical interfacing
> with something mechanical ..it's a fundamental weakness.
> < of note..the next air sensing device up the food chain, the Air Mass
> Meter has No mechanical things touching anything ...brilliant. Air
> flowing over tiny wires changes their resistance and the computer reads
> that. It even can compensate for humidity and barometric pressure. A
> regular Air Flow Meter is quite crude in comparison. >
> I have never seen an incorrectly reading Air Temp Sensor in an AFM..
> though it's in the book.
>
> 9. ECU ...I've only seen them not work .........like they are either
> ok, or dead. It's really smart to have a known good spare. Try it out as
> soon as you get it, mark them so you can tell which is which . I always
> have a known good spare on board.
>
> 10. fuel pump, fuel pressure, fuel tank, fuel pressure regulator. In
> all cases of not running right..
> the fuel filter should be removed, and emptied out backwards on a clean
> dish to see what's in it..
> I find dirt, water, and and tiny metal particles. And check how
> restricted the filter is. It's practical to just put on a new fairly
> original type ( not a cheapo ) just to not have to do this messy toxic
> job again.
> I do find water in the fuel once in a great while. That can be a
> weird one ...like engine works right sometimes, not others.
> Fuel pressure ....usually not an issue. I found maybe two bad fuel
> pressure regulators in a dozen years.
> Fuel pumps ...those last 'forever' ..but not really really totally
> indefenitly.
> fuel tanks get old and clog up.
> Fuel pressure has to be about right.
>
> 11. Vacuum line to the fuel pressure regulator. Those fall off or crack.
> Easy to check. Check **ALL vacuum lines**carefully.
>
> 12. Air Intake Boot .those last super well. On a rare occasion one will
> crack and leak air and result in very poor and uneven running..
> Sometimes they just get loose at one end from the clamp not being
> tightened carefully.
>
> 13. Spark plug wires. Last really really well. On a rare occasion they
> can be faulty, and it's hard to tell.
> if old, say 5 to 10 or more years, they are suspect.
> clever tests ...observe the engine run in total darkness...if you see
> tiny sparks running around ...plug wires are leaking.
> at a smooth idle..spray wires down with fine mist of water..any
> stumbling or change...yup, plug wires.
>
> 14. Spark plugs. Eventually their gaps grow large and the electrodes get
> rounded edges. They are not a weak spot in Waterboxer engines. I have
> dozens of sets left over from engine conversions. I haven't bought a new
> set of spark plugs in years. Inspect them yes, gap them sure. If worn,
> replace them, not a weak area at all if using decent brand plugs.
>
> 15. tune up parts...a real Bosch distributor cap and rotor in my
> experience last 'forever'. If you see a cheapo some other brand, not
> good. On rare occasion dist. caps develop cracks. Look for signs or
> arcing or cracks.
> Don't use cheap parts !
>
> 16. Idle control valve and control unit for it. A dead or faulty
> Control Unit is pretty common. I had one that would idle at 2,000+ rpm
> cold. Tried another one from one of my other 2.1 systems ...yep
> ...faulty Control Unit. The good one shot to maybe 1,500 rpm and
> immediately settled into a nice normal idle rpm.
> I just read today on here....The Valve ..hard to find, coils burn out in
> them , something like that.
> You want that system working.
>
> 17. Oxygen sensor . The Oxygen Sensor does not come into play until
> engine is warmed up some.
> if in doubt, disconnect it, then see how things run.
> Lots of vanagons are running around with dead 02 sensors. They run all
> right, run a little rich that way, burn more fuel.
> Test the voltage output with engine warmed up. 02 sensors can be
> working, lazy, or dead.
> You want nice swinging voltage , like .2 to .8 volts , warmed up engine
> running, circuit connected. If you see s steady say .5 or .6
> volts..it's dead. If it doesn't move a lot, it's tired and lazy.,
>
> 18. Exhaust leaks. There must not be any exhaust leaks. Leaks at an
> exhaust port will contribute to burning that exhaust valve. Exhaust
> leaks near the 02 sensor can mess with the sensor's readings.
>
> < had one guy come from 300 miles away in a 91 Carat ...
> very late model van ...l
> Lol..he tells me he's married and has 4 children and this is his only
> car...I say ..you CAN NOT have that life situation and a Vanagon for
> your only car !
> Anyway ..he says he paid $ 600 for a new distributor with a german
> mechanic TWICE ..and now, Again, it's cutting out.
> I look at it. I find the throttle switch not making contact, and exhaust
> leaks right near the Oxygen sensor. I fix and adjust those...check a few
> other things ...timing probably. We drive it, it runs fine.
> He's skeptical ...says "I'm going to drive this ALL OVER town tomorrow,
> and if acts up I'm coming back."
> He didn't come back.
> On a waterboxer engine ..ALL the Details have to be Pretty Darn Right.
> About 25 things, at least. .
>
> 19. Cat ( Cat and Muffler ) Cats fail, clog up, and can clog and
> restrict running, sometimes intermediately. Same for muffler, tho that
> is very rare. But failed cats....fairly common. Usual simptom is very
> low power, won't rev out like it should .
>
> 20. Thermostat. Doesn't affect starting or cold operation . But
> ..thermostat MUST be working and keeping engine up to proper temp !!
> It Must run at 180ish F. Must. Use good German ones, Whaler or Behr.
> Countless Vanagons are running too cool. I like the hotter one for
> winter, the cooler one for summer.
>
> 21. Injectors . I have about 12 running cars, 7 of them vanagons.
> Naturally I don't get to drive many of them that much. I would Not Dream
> of not adding a good fuel additive now and then. Seafoam ...that's The
> One in my opinion. Also, Sta-bill for any gasoline engine that sits.
> The fuel should be treated once in a while, couple times a year.
> Mostly the injectors are not a weak area. In 15 years of full time
> vanagon work I found one dribbling at idle,
> causing a failed smog test.
> They're very easy to test for leakage and spray pattern. Not a weak
> area, just something that should be considered .
>
> 22. Vanagon Syndrome. Google it. I've never seen an actual case, but
> if I have the Adapter Harness, I run it .
>
> 23. I'm sure there's more, that I'll think of later or others will think
> of.
>
> oh...here's what it is ! ! :
> It is literally................."A blockage or leakage of fluids or
> electrons."
>
> < many people don't realize that 'fluids' does not mean just
> liquids...also means air, vacuum , exhaust etc.
> So somewhere ..or in multiple places ..some electrons are not going
> where they should ..
> some device that has some fluid involved....vacuum, air, exhaust etc. is
> not doing or seeing the right thing.>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________________________________
> Re general understanding of the system ...( especially for a no start
> situation ) .
>
> Pretty simple actually.
>
> it's like the ECU is the brain, and the distributor is the Heart.
> The human on the ignition switch starts a sequence..
> 'On' wakes up the ECU via the Main Relay and I believe wakes up the
> distributor,
> and for several seconds, the ecu supplies ground the Fuel Pump Relay to
> energize it, so there is some fuel pre--pressure.
>
> ( of note, it is Never really right to just hop in and turn the key to
> 'start' !
> What is right, is ..turn it to on, listen for the fuel pump to run and
> then shut off, and observe warning lights working. It's in the Owner's
> Manual about the warning lights.
> Many an oil pressure warning light and system are not working..
> people never notice....lots of engines ruined that way.
> THEN...turn it to start.
>
> the starter causes the engine and distributor to turn and make ignition
> with the coil .
> The ecu sees the distributor turning ..
> and energizes the injectors , all 4 at once. Cheaply, the injectors are
> not sequentially fired or even timed to intake stroke . So if you see
> injector pulse at one injector, they are all probably being pulsed.
>
> here's a Real Easy and Quick way to diagnose a no-start ..( engine
> cranks but won't fire )
>
> Grab your known-good spare distributor,
> unplug the wires on the side of the engine's distributor and plug that
> into the known--good distributor in your hand.
> Rig up the high voltage coil wire from the coil where it can spark to
> ground.
> Put a NOID light ( google it ) on one injector connector.
> < the above takes about one or two minutes to do, or only a few >
> Turn on the key,
> go back to the engine,
> turn the distributor in your hands with your fingers.
>
> what you should see...every quarter turn ..
> 3 things happen ..a zap of the coil wire,
> a flash of the NOID light,
> and the fuel pump runs a few seconds.
> if it does those three things..
> and there's fuel to the injectors and ignition timing is about right,
> and there's pressurized fuel to the injectors, it sure should run.
>
> I just did that in about 5 minutes on one of my vans..an 85 ..it was a
> worn out/dead original distributor. Had it running in about 10 or 15
> minutes total.
>
> lots of other things could be not quite right of course..say temp Sensor
> II ...but with those 3 happening plus fuel pressure. ..it should at
> least fire .
> And ignition timing has to be roughly where it belongs. If it cranks
> with harsh resistance, the timing is probably much too advance. Just
> turn the distributor clockwise some.
>
> OK< way long enuf !
> It's NOT replacing parts !
> in fact, it's often not 'a part' .
> It's testing, checking, inspecting, cleaning, and adjusting. And once in
> a while you'll find a faulty or dead or just too tired part,
> but mostly, the parts are very well made ..at least originally.
> Things wear and change gradually.
> Beware they shop that says 'we have to tune it up first before we can
> diagnose fuel injection.
> That's bull. Sure the tune parts must be inspected, and tired ones
> replaced..
> but 'tune up' ...disgusting term, as the cars are pretty self-tuning ..
> Any modern competent shop won't even use that term 'tune up.'
>
> I have seen countless cases of shops that tossed in an air filter
> element, some cheap plug wires and plugs that didn't make any
> difference at all, and just took the person's money.
> Gash ...they might have to ACTUALLY inspect and test, and THINK to fix it !
>
> low battery gotta go !
> Scott
>
>
> On 3/9/2016 5:18 PM, PB wrote:
>
>> I've had my 90 Westy automatic since 2007. Up until this past summer, the
>> van would start up and idle beautifully, and I could drive it right away.
>> Now, roughly since this past fall, all of a sudden I have to sit and give
>> it gas for 5 or 10 minutes before I can go anywhere. After it's "warmed
>> up" it drives perfectly and idles perfectly when stopped.
>>
>> I've had regular routine maintenance done by mechanics, but this just
>> seems
>> to have started out of nowhere. What needs to be done?
>>
>> Patti
>> 90 Westy Automatic
>> 117,000 miles
>> Los Angeles
>>
>>
>>
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