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Date:         Sun, 10 Apr 2016 15:32:40 -0400
Reply-To:     Dennis Haynes <d23haynes57@HOTMAIL.COM>
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From:         Dennis Haynes <d23haynes57@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Replacement of coolant parts,
              Failure modes and using the temperature gauge after losing the
              water pump or massive amount of coolant.
Comments: To: Jim Felder <jim.felder@GMAIL.COM>
In-Reply-To:  <CAFnDXk2J7NcCvbyUbzAo1kC4VVCW6UUZfQG8nseWpJwWNT-Hbg@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

For the Vanagon and many European cars the thermostat is not a simple open-close device. The cooling system is designed so that coolant continuously recirculates and this so done to maintain consistent temperature on both sides of the engine and between the cylinders and the head. As the stat opens the path for the hot coolant to go into the radiator it also closes off the recirculation path. Without that 2nd shut off disc the full flow of the water pump is not available for pushing the coolant through the radiator. Hot weather and the AC will bring this combination on its knees. Worse as this radiator and engine coolant is mixed the gauge may not give a true reading as to what is really happening.

Get that steam blasted t-stat replaced with the proper one ASAP.

Dennis

-----Original Message----- From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On Behalf Of Jim Felder Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2016 2:23 PM To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM Subject: Re: Replacement of coolant parts, Failure modes and using the temperature gauge after losing the water pump or massive amount of coolant.

Another thing that catches people by surprise after they have had a cooling system failure is the immediate and almost inevitable second cooling system failure caused by the fact that when your engine overheats, your thermostat is also shot and there is no use doing anything to your car until the thermostat has been replaced, or, in an emergency on the road, removed. Any car, not just Vanagons.

Jim

On Sun, Apr 10, 2016 at 9:31 AM Dennis Haynes <d23haynes57@hotmail.com> wrote:

> As seems to happen this time of year we get a number of new folks with

> newly acquired vans or folks with newly acquired problems. These folks

> have various levels of skills with things automotive and what I find > amazing is the number of folks that couldn't recognize a screwdriver > until after they acquired their Vanagon. > > Based on that I try to give responses to questions based on sound > understanding of how things work and try to offer best practice or at > least long term value added solutions. > > Regarding failure modes of the cooling system, the first warnings are > the low coolant light or the alternator-water pump has stopped > turning. Both are serious failures and require shut down as soon as it is safe to do so. > In both cases the temperature gauge is somewhat disabled and cannot be

> relied as an indicator that it is OK to continue. The temperature > sensor is screwed directly into a head. It is on a small manifold > often plastic. The coolant has to flow in order for it to work. In > the case of water pump failure it will not rise until after the > coolant has started boiling and if the cap can’t relieve the pressure > there goes hoses or other parts such as manifolds, heater cores, > radiator etc. Or, when those coolant pipes are discolored, cracking, > ends slipping out etc. Overheating has occurred in the past. The > original pipes are still in Fun Bus and that is with surviving three > cooling system failures that I remember, two thrown belts and one fan failure. Last Monday it turned 295K miles. > > The other thing that happens with a sudden coolant loss is damage to > the engine. When the system is working properly the temperature gauge > is indication the bulk temperature of the coolant. There are parts of

> the engine that operating at much higher temperatures especially at > the valves and in the combustion chambers. The coolant needs to be > pressurized to remain in contact with those super-heated parts. Lose > the pressure, the coolant will flash and all sorts of nasty things > happen like warped and cracked heads, stretched studs, piston and case

> damage etc. Depending on speed and load the cooling system could be > dealing with almost 400,000 btu/hr. of heat. The burner on top of your stove is probably 10,000 btu/hr. > and think what you can do to an empty pot with it. Engine bay fires do

> happen from cooling system failures also. > > So, maintain the cooling system. Know the warning modes and shut it > down when needed even if it means a tow. > > BTW the exhaust is also part of the plan to dissipate engine heat. Be

> sure the system is sound and do proper repairs. As an experiment on a > dark night, open the engine cover. Run the engine at about 4,000 rpm > for about 5 minutes and observed the exhaust pipes start to glow near > the heads. When they turn red you are pushing 1,200 to 1,300F. Crack a

> pipe of loose a gasket and stuff will get damaged. > > Dennis > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On > Behalf Of SDF ( aka ;jim lahey' - Scott ) > Sent: Saturday, April 09, 2016 5:50 PM > To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM > Subject: Re: Replacement of coolant > > People have used marine hose the full length of the van to replace the

> main coolant pipes, I've read. > I wouldn't though. > > basically metal pipes are desired. > one warning ...on one set of aftermarket stainless pipes I was > involved with, the ends , rather than nipple shaped, were just > flaired, with a sharp edge. > > The hoses jammed on that sharp flair in an awful way...like impossibly > stuck. If those are still being sold....you don't want that style. > > I've only ever had one case of a plastic pipe end failing in flight .. > one of the fronts in an 87 Wolfsburg ..pretty common failure. > > My level warning light worked like it should.....on a freeway at 65mph

> out in the country .. > temp was still ok ... > decided to pass the first off ramp to make it to the next town where I

> could get water and pipes. > lol....it failed wildly just as I pulled into a parking lot .. > about 20 minutes after noticing something was going on. > no damage to engine or anything. > > of course, one looks at the coolant temp guage in a Vanagon about once

> a minute while driving, at least. > > Scott > > On 4/9/2016 7:05 AM, David Bohannan wrote: > > Has anyone tried using rubber lines from a "roll" used for big trucks?? > > > > I just found a crack on the front of one of my white pipes...I know > what's next... > > > > Dave > > > >> On Apr 9, 2016, at 12:15 AM, Dennis Haynes > >> <d23haynes57@HOTMAIL.COM> > wrote: > >> > >> If the ends are popping out the tubes are already broken. The ends > won’t slide as long as the hose barb is still there as it was molded > around the step in that tube. Without that hose barb or raised edge no

> matter what you only have the friction to hold the connection > together. It may work for a while or maybe even a long time. I find it

> amazing that even folks that have invested in engines will still take the risk of this future failure. > As a though if no one invests in the replacement pipes that are > offered when you really need it we shouldn’t expect them to be available. > >> > >> Dennis > >> > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On > >> Behalf Of kenneth wilford (Van-Again) > >> Sent: Friday, April 8, 2016 10:03 AM > >> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM > >> Subject: Re: Replacement of coolant > >> > >> The best and easiest way to drain most of the coolant is by pulling

> >> the > two hoses at the front behind the spare tire. Just mark them so you > know how they go back. Then you can inspect that end of the pipe as > well and see if it is separating. There will still be coolant in the > pipes and the rear of the system so after that is drained go to the > back and pull the hoses off of that end of the pipes. Now inspect > them. You will have drained about 90% of the coolant at this point > but there will still be at least half a gallon sitting in the pipes > that there is really no way to get out other than pulling them out completely (just did this job yesterday). > So if the pipes look good on the ends I would just leave them alone > and don't bother installing that Go Westy snake oil fix kit thing. I > have no clue what it is supposed to do but if you were grabbing a bar > of soap in the shower and you tried to stop it from popping out by > blocking it with your other hand, what good would that do? It would > still slip out even if you tried to block it. That is how I see their kit. > >> > >> If the ends are popping out but not broken then you can heat them > >> up > and tap them metal back inside like I just did. However eventually > they will work their way out again due to the heat cycles and pressure

> on the system. That is why I am considering putting a rivet through > the plastic into the metal sleeve to keep it from moving. Eventually > the plastic may crack up and the metal may rust and swell but that > will probably be many more years and thousands of miles into the > future. If you want a more permanent fix then the stainless steel pipes are the way to go. > >> > >> Ken > >> > >> On Fri, Apr 8, 2016 at 8:53 AM, Dennis Jowell > >> <dennisjowell@gmail.com> > >> wrote: > >> > >>> Ken, > >>> I think that may be the way to go. Still my fear is losing all > >>> the coolant when I drop the pipes to check for or correct for any > >>> loose connections. I don't understand how to drain the coolant > >>> through the provided 3 air vents on my 88 Westy > >>> > >>> Dennis Jowell > >>> Scotch Hollow Farm > >>> Newbury, Vermont > >>> > >>> > >>>>> On Apr 8, 2016, at 8:28 AM, kenneth wilford (Van-Again) < > >>>> kenwilfy@COMCAST.NET> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> I usually replace the pipes with stainless ones if the ends are > >>>> breaking up. However I recently had a van where the ends weren't

> >>>> rusty or > >>> breaking > >>>> up but that the steel was just pushing it's way out of the ends > >>>> of the plastic pipes. I decided to try to heat up the pipes with

> >>>> a heat gun and just see what happened. The plastic got to a > >>>> certain temperature and > >>> got a > >>>> wet look and then I could just tap the metal ends all the way > >>>> back in > >>> like > >>>> they were when they were new. I am thinking about drilling a > >>>> hole and putting a stainless steel rivet near the end to keep the

> >>>> metal sleeve > >>> from > >>>> moving again. If they don't move that should keep the ends from > >>>> coming apart in the future. What do you think? > >>>> > >>>> Ken > >>>> > >>>> On Thu, Apr 7, 2016 at 5:23 PM, Dennis Haynes > >>>> <d23haynes57@hotmail.com> > >>>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> If you are referring to the kit to keep the hoses attached to > >>>>> the > >>> coolant > >>>>> pipes don't bother. As much as I like many Go Westy products and

> >>>>> designs this is not a sound solution. Replace the coolant pipes > >>>>> with one of the replacement alternatives and be done with it. > >>>>> Keep in mind that one of these hose failures on the highway will

> >>>>> mean some level of engine damage and > >>> if > >>>>> really unlucky some possible cost for environmental or the > >>>>> vehicle > >>> behind > >>>>> you clean up. With some care these pipes can be replaced without > >>> dropping > >>>>> the fuel tank. > >>>>> > >>>>> Dennis > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>> From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On > >>> Behalf Of > >>>>> Dennis Jowell > >>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 7, 2016 4:32 PM > >>>>> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM > >>>>> Subject: Replacement of coolant > >>>>> > >>>>> I thought I would install GOWESTY' s coolant hose repair kit by > >>>>> myself before we head out to Northwestern Canada in a few weeks. > >>>>> Reading my Bentley I got concerned on wether I can accomplish > >>>>> this work in the > >>> current > >>>>> weather here in Vermont. > >>>>> I work behind my barn, ground is somewhat still frozen /muddy so

> >>>>> I can't jack the our Westy up. This would make it a lot easier > >>>>> to install the > >>> kit. > >>>>> When draining the coolant I didn't want to lose any on the pasture. > >>>>> Is there a safe and easy way to do this. How can I be sure that > >>>>> no coolant will > >>> get > >>>>> on the ground from me spilling it. > >>>>> Any thoughts would be great and helpful. > >>>>> I also have the GOWESTY bike pump for the coolant air problem > >>>>> and to > >>> check > >>>>> for leaks which I have a small one at the rear heater. No > >>>>> surprise > >>> Thanks, > >>>>> Dennis Jowell > >>>>> Scotch Hollow Farm > >>>>> Newbury, Vermont > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> Thanks, > >>>> Ken Wilford > >>>> John 3:16 > >>>> www.vanagain.com > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Thanks, > >> Ken Wilford > >> John 3:16 > >> www.vanagain.com >


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