Date: Sat, 28 May 2016 16:40:38 -0400
Reply-To: Dennis Haynes <d23haynes57@HOTMAIL.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Dennis Haynes <d23haynes57@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Solved?? Re: further measuring of new GW brake shoes vs old
generic brand shoes
In-Reply-To: <CAB2Rwfi-Li999+Sc7_fZBBjxAtVqG_Mmxe+aJ=tmT1KgO0mxKg@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
If you as much as only use the brakes to slow-stop the vehicle as you enter your driveway there will be heat. Touch the front rotors after one stop and you may hear your skin sizzle. As magic as you might think brakes are they work by converting the kinetic energy of the van in to heat. So all the energy used when you made the van go gets dissipated in the brakes when you stop. Yes things will get hot. Watch Nascar at a track that has a lot of turns and notice the reddish glow behind the front wheels. Yes that is the rotors turning red which puts them about 1,300F.
Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On Behalf Of Neil N
Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2016 1:13 PM
To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
Subject: Re: Solved?? Re: further measuring of new GW brake shoes vs old generic brand shoes
re wheel bearings. Ok. I guess the spacer (?) is quite strong.
And the wear at inspection plug is nearly identical at each wheel.
I suspect the Zimmerman drums have a different dimension to lip than, say an ATE drum. And most people don't have inspection-adjuster hole plugs installed and their back plates are rusted thinner.
I had a previous not that old master cylinder fail (pedal sank VERY slowly it seemed) likely b/c van sat un-used for about a year and b/c I didn't change the brake fluid often enough.
It developed rust inside. A few images:
brake fluid at push rod tube? http://tinyurl.com/gnrnwhp
seal nearest push rod: http://tinyurl.com/h7fqkrj
close up, seal rotated: http://tinyurl.com/zlq99d3
where seal sat inside MC: http://tinyurl.com/hqps8k7
Each MC was either FTE or the "German" FTE sold by VC.
image of sticker on box of latest MC: http://tinyurl.com/jkxfgk9
Right now, brakes work though and pedal height improves each time I drive it but the drums do still feel hot-ish at times. Maybe totally normal. IF so I may have egg on my face re the GW shoes. I still maintain though that with the Zimmerman drums, they were too close with adjuster slacked off.
Maybe the e-brake cables needed to be backed off more but there was slack at each shoe lever between lever and adjuster bar and cable to lever.
It's reasuuring to get comments from you on "big brakes". That said, I'm leery to install anything but OEM type parts on the brakes.
Neil.
On 5/28/16, Dennis Haynes <d23haynes57@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Unless something is wrong or damaged in the bearings you can't move
> the drum too close by overtightening the flange nut.
> The lining cracking is usually due to heat or rust jacking from underneath.
> The shoe and lining expand at different rates. From the factory the
> linings were riveted. For as long as they were available I was getting
> shoes from the dealer. While they were pricey they did work the best
> and lasted the longest.
> As for big brakes I like them. For highway use 225/60-16 or 225/55-17
> tires works awesome on the 2WD drive Vanagons. I am doing one now with
> 215/6016XL Nokians eNtyre. Customer wants match spare fitting in the tire carrier.
> Currently I'm running the African big brake kit on Fun Bus. The pads
> are terrible. Losts of brake dust and the rotors keep warping or
> glazing. Cut them twice in 30K . I have installed 6 of the GW front
> big brake kits and not a single complaint. Everything fits including the hoses.
>
> As for the pedal sinking that can be bad check valve in the master cylinder.
> One thing I've learned about brake hydraulic is that being new and
> being good do not go hand in hand. Infant mortality!
>
> Dennis
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On
> Behalf Of Neil N
> Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2016 12:14 AM
> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
> Subject: Re: Solved?? Re: further measuring of new GW brake shoes vs
> old generic brand shoes
>
> Thanks Dean. Will give that some thought.
>
> Dennis; Thanks. Yes, larger wheels may happen someday. Maybe.
>
> I have the McMaster shims on hand. The shoes I replaced were wearing
> over most of the shoe. The lining on shoes before that had cracked but
> I assumed this was due to faulty material. Image:
> http://tinyurl.com/j9yy9xs But then I knew less about brakes at that
> point.
>
> The interesting part is that with either the GW or Dura shoes, and
> nearly all the new hardware, the brake pedal does feel different. e.g.
> I can fell the brakes start to grab slightly close to top of pedal as
> I push. I"m really hoping though that I didn't do any damage to the
> master cylinder which is fairly new. While making the adjusters work,
> the pedal travelled fairly far. I'm sure it's my mind playing tricks
> on me (or my
> foot) but it almost feels like the pedal slowly sinks when pushed
> medium hard. I have kept up on brake fluid changes.
>
> I recall scraping away rust flakes stuck to the axle housing face and
> at point where plate meets the hub but not around the outer edge of that face.
> Am hoping that spray painting the backing plate with several coats
> didn't "push" the plate further out. Or worse, that I overtightened
> the axle nut thus brought drum closer in.
> In measuring new to previous drums, it's highly likely the old drums
> were Zimmerman as are the new drums.
> There was no inspection or adjuster plug installed on old plates
> running previous set of drums.
>
> Neil.
>
> On 5/27/16, Dennis Haynes <d23haynes57@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Upgrading the front brakes means larger wheels so they can fit.
>> With the 503L shoes after you run them for a while you can shim out
>> the lower shoe rests. When you check them later you will see the wear
>> at the top only and with any heavy braking they will overheat and
>> possibly crack.
>>
>> When you fitted those new backing plates did you file-grind the rust
>> ridge away from the bearing housing? Did you get the plate to sit
>> perfectly flush before bolting? The shoes sitting tapers indicates
>> the backing plate was not properly seated and when bolted in place it
>> became distorted. Might also explain the rubbing and damage to the
>> inspection plug.
>>
>> Dennis
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On
>> Behalf Of Neil N
>> Sent: Friday, May 27, 2016 2:05 AM
>> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
>> Subject: Re: Solved?? Re: further measuring of new GW brake shoes vs
>> old generic brand shoes
>>
>> I dunno. It's all just such a giant crap shoot. Aftermarket parts I mean.
>> Like you'd think there would be standards like ID of new drums, shoe
>> lining thickness etc. that work in harmony.
>> Hypothetically speaking, if a brake parts maker is going to make
>> shoes better suited to the Vanagon, like closer to OEM, one would
>> hope that same company would make both the shoes, drums, hardware etc.
>>
>> Yes, I'd think that I'll have a less than ideal contact patch,
>> initially anyways.
>>
>> I think the real issue with the pre '86 brakes, for me anyways, is
>> brake fade.
>>
>> I have the later style steering knuckles. That may be the next
>> project though its just a bunch more work.
>>
>> The good part is I've learned, I hope, a fair amount. The current
>> shoes are still bedding in but pedal height is getting closer to
>> normal. It was nice to hear both adjusters working.
>> Reinstalling the GW shoes is not really an option it seems; I just
>> couldn't get them to fit w/o having them heat up even when brakes
>> weren't being used.
>> But maybe my lack of experience with brakes is the issue. Hard to say.
>>
>> Neil.
>>
>>
>> On 5/26/16, Dennis Haynes <d23haynes57@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> The only down side is that with those aftermarket shoes you get to
>>> have lousy brakes. Not having the full surface of the shoe contact
>>> the drum means less effective friction surface. There is a good
>>> chance those drums you have are tapered. I have had bad luck with
>>> drums being the correct dimensions so many times I only use ATE or
>>> the GoWesty HD.
>>> Turning new drums to make them round and true also makes more room.
>>> That pictures looks like you may have had some drag on the backing
>>> plate. I have seen that with poorly machined drums also.
>>>
>>> Dennis
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On
>>> Behalf Of Neil N
>>> Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2016 2:52 AM
>>> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
>>> Subject: Solved?? Re: further measuring of new GW brake shoes vs old
>>> generic brand shoes
>>
>>
>>> Shoe lining thickness in each shoe brand: 6 mm.
>>
>> --
>> Neil n
>>
>> Blog: Vanagons, Westfalia, general <http://tubaneil.blogspot.ca>
>>
>> 1988 Westy Images
>> <https://picasaweb.google.com/musomuso/New1988Westy>
>>
>> 1981 Westfalia "Jaco" Images, technical
>> <http://tubaneil.googlepages.com/>
>>
>> Vanagon-Bus VAG Gas Engine Swap Group <http://tinyurl.com/khalbay>
>>
>
>
> --
> Neil n
>
> Blog: Vanagons, Westfalia, general <http://tubaneil.blogspot.ca>
>
> 1988 Westy Images <https://picasaweb.google.com/musomuso/New1988Westy>
>
> 1981 Westfalia "Jaco" Images, technical
> <http://tubaneil.googlepages.com/>
>
> Vanagon-Bus VAG Gas Engine Swap Group <http://tinyurl.com/khalbay>
>
--
Neil n
Blog: Vanagons, Westfalia, general <http://tubaneil.blogspot.ca>
1988 Westy Images <https://picasaweb.google.com/musomuso/New1988Westy>
1981 Westfalia "Jaco" Images, technical <http://tubaneil.googlepages.com/>
Vanagon-Bus VAG Gas Engine Swap Group <http://tinyurl.com/khalbay>
