Date: Sun, 29 May 2016 10:16:27 -0700
Reply-To: Neil N <musomuso@GMAIL.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Neil N <musomuso@GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Solved?? Re: further measuring of new GW brake shoes vs old
generic brand shoes
In-Reply-To: <BAY405-EAS172B1084913F7C4D9E217ACA0440@phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Thanks Dennis.
I've come to realize that I'm obsessing over all this brake stuff.
Yes, details need to be paid attention to. And, I"m thankful for list
help and my own interests causing me to pay closer attention to
details. But. My obsession level could easily cause me to misdiagnose.
e.g. the master cylinder on my '81 is likely ok. But the difference in
pedal feel between my '88 and this '81 is noticeable. In part, due to
the '81 shoes not having seated yet. Regardless, I find it hard to
believe that I damaged the '81 MC or that it is faulty after less than
2 years and not many miles.
As other folks have experienced, it seems to be "one thing after
another" on my two Westies. I have no idea how folks with FT jobs etc.
can do ALL their own work on multiple vehicles! I'm finding it to be a
PT job these days. And, the degree to which I'm devoted to these
things seems to get a little "over board" at times. I'm certain I'm
not alone on that count.
Regarding rear brake details, I still believe that my old adjusters
were not working properly due to wear at some teeth. The point of each
tooth on the new adjuster wheels is much sharper and noticeably higher
than the worn wheels. On the old wheels, indeed the lever would engage
at the face of a tooth but as the lever reached the point of that
tooth, the lever would slip over it allowing the wheel to return to
its' original position. The old wheels had wear points on two to
several teeth in a row which to me indicated that the lever was
repeatedly wearing down those few teeth; it might've successfully
eventually levered a tooth up but then the process of wear would start
on the next tooth. I'm sure that a sticking adjuster wheel is the main
culprit here but I'd suggest that wear and tear would accomplish this
over time. With the new adjusters, I certainly heard them doing a
consistent "click, chung" thing which for those not familiar, is the
adjuster lever turning the wheel then slipping down to the next gap
between teeth. I used a very light coat of "brake grease" on these
adjuster bar threads. The "chung" is likely the adjuster lever spring
reverberating. I used to think adjuster lever noise would be a barely
audible. Not so.
Some claim the adjuster system doesn't work or that its "crap" (or
words to that effect) but it most certainly does if parts are ok AND
the shoes are initially adjusted to the spec shown in Bentley or
somewhat close to that. As an extreme opposite example, if the gap
between newly installed shoes and drum is too great (e.g. 3 mm at each
shoe), as the shoes make up that gap during braking, the adjuster
spring continually pulls down at the square end of the adjuster lever.
As that square end remains butted up against the adjuster bar,
following it for ~ 6mm, the other end of the lever is forced way up
past the teeth ending up stuck at ~ 30º. To boot, the square end might
get jammed between the somewhat slack adjuster bar and face of brake
shoe bracket.
As you and others have commented, pedal height is certainly affected
by the rear brakes. I'd think that even an additional 1 mm clearance
between each shoe and the drum is amplified to a much larger
measurement at the pedal.
The lining on the Dura shoes is 6 mm but the shoe frame (bracket?) is
different than what I saw on the GW shoes. That said, I'm sure that
commerce aside (we all need to make a living!), Vanagon centric
vendors are doing their best to source better stock of parts. Thank
goodness for that. As another Westfalian commented at VW bus campout,
the "rabbit hole" for who actually makes a given part, is windy and
DEEP.
I'm now at the point where I will likely dive in and swap spindles,
install new springs on hand, etc. so may, again, <sigh> re-install
the gowesty shoes.
We'll see. Vanagon ownership is wearing me thin these days!
Neil.
On 5/29/16, Dennis Haynes <d23haynes57@hotmail.com> wrote:
> You're welcome. No need to apologize. While you may have gone a little
> extreme most do not realize how important and how much the rear brakes are
> needed to stop these vehicles. After the OEM shoes were no longer available
> it took some time for me to realize the problem with fitment of the
> aftermarket shoes. It reached a point that all shoe replacements started
> with 2mm shims with new drums and 3mm or more with worn. Then I came across
> the GoWesty shoes and what the heck? I can’t get the drums on with any
> shims. Deal! So I have been using them. The price is reasonable and while I
> see nothing special about the lining material they seem to be working. And
> then after you come along I now have one that is a tad too tight. For the
> heck I tired swapping another set of shoes ( I stock these). OK now.
> Quality? Anyway a little filing-grinding will make it right.
>
> One thing that you are doing great is paying attention to the details.
> Details will make or break any job. As those shoes wear you can add shims as
> needed. As long as the rests come out easy you can pull the shoes out,
> remove the rest, add shims and let slide back in. Overtime you will see the
> wear pattern and benefit of bottom adjustment.
>
> One thing with drum brakes it that they should never be considered a set and
> forget forever system. They need to be regularly inspected and even cleaned.
> The brake drum backing plate is designed to resist water intrusion and which
> also means wear dust can’t get out. They stuff can build up in there and
> just keep messing up the works. Grease on the adjuster is not a good idea so
> it needs to lubricated with some type of oil or Lock ease to keep that from
> rusting. Sometimes the springs break. Etc. it only takes a few minutes to
> pull off the drums and have a look around.
> Tire rotation, after any major panic stop, long downhill trip excursions
> where you know you heated them up, etc. are all reasons to have a look.
>
> Dennis
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On Behalf Of
> Neil N
> Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2016 9:05 PM
> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
> Subject: Re: Solved?? Re: further measuring of new GW brake shoes vs old
> generic brand shoes
>
> And your expertise is much appreciated Dennis. I can appreciate how mich
> time answering emails of this ilk, takes. I apologize to all for posting so
> much about my brakes.
--
Neil n
Blog: Vanagons, Westfalia, general <http://tubaneil.blogspot.ca>
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