Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2016 22:56:25 -0400
Reply-To: Dennis Haynes <d23haynes57@HOTMAIL.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Dennis Haynes <d23haynes57@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Coolant Mystery positive update - WATER WETTER
In-Reply-To: <A0C5B3E2-ED4F-4FC8-91B8-66095C265369@comcast.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I would like to say thank you for posting this. I was trying to figure out a
way to respond the Water wetter posts. Products like this have their place
but for most this is snake oil. The lower gauge readings are possibly caused
by the sludge-coating actually reducing the transfer of heat to the coolant.
The so called benefit of these lower readings is also only a benefit in a
system where the coolant is saturated and no longer under thermostatic
control. I'll also add that I don't completely trust reports from a company
reporting on a competitors product.
That said, I have a lot of experience with specialty coolants used in
industrial applications and some knowledge of some special requirements for
industrial and Diesel engines. Ford Power Stroke owners years ago learned
the hard way about cylinder cavitation erosion which large Diesel engine
operator knew about for years. They used to use supplemental coolant
additives, mostly wetting agents to combat this. There were even filters
with time-release elements to keep this stuff in check. When I first got my
motor home I would test the coolant and add SCA's as needed to maintain a
certain level. Now there are long and extended life coolants that reduce or
even eliminate these concerns and provide very long service life. Global
Final Charge is good for 6 years-600,000 miles with only a one time addition
of additives.
I pay attention to these coolants as heavy duty diesels have one thing in
common with the Waterboxer. They have separate sleeves for cylinders. These
special coolant have the wetting agents to prevent the cavitation erosion
issue on these "liners" and studs. I have been using the Final Charge in Fun
us and a number of other vehicles for a number of years. They work! The one
thing has seem to changed is the reduction of water pump seal failure. The
down is that the wetting agents work by reducing the surface tension of
water. This means that even smaller openings become leaks and this stuff
leaves a trail so the leaks are obvious.
Just like using the proper oil, using a good quality coolant along with
quality water, no further additives should be needed. The Vanagon cooling
system has massive capacity considering the size of the engine. It should
work without snake oil.
Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On Behalf Of
OlRivrRat
Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2016 12:51 AM
To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
Subject: Re: Coolant Mystery positive update - WATER WETTER
Some Info of Possible Interest ~ This appears to be 4Yr Old Info ~
" Greg Theisz
Southeast Regional Manager
Cell 713-253-3422 Fax 210-568-2940
gtheisz@royalpurple.com
We recently had a consumer provide us with a coolant sample that he thought
had been contaminated with motor oil from a blown head gasket. We performed
an analysis, and found it wasn't motor oil. It was polysiloxane polymer
(i.e. silicone) from Red Line Water Wetter. He had been using this product
for several years, adding a couple bottles per year.
Seeing this prompted us to look into the issue further in the controlled
environment of our coolant test lab.
We setup our ASTM D2570 Simulated Service coolant test rig, and ran Water
Wetter through repeated heat/cool cycles. We found that after 8-10 cycles,
the polysiloxane polymer become completely insoluble. After another 5-6
cycles, it turned brown, and began coating the inside of the radiator. After
another 15-20 cycles, it turned darker brown, and in the high heat area of
the system became thicker in consistency -- almost like molasses.
As mentioned in a previous report on this topic, Red Line uses polysiloxane
polymer as an antifoam ingredient in their Water Wetter formula. This is
"old technology," as there are now far more sophisticated antifoam
ingredients available for coolant. The problem with polysiloxane is that it
is only marginally soluble in water, and polymerizes through repeated
heating/cooling cycles.
Have a look at the attached photos. Two of them are glass beakers
containing the Water Wetter/water solution drained from our ASTM test rig at
the conclusion of the test. The other one is the coolant reservoir of the
consumer who needlessly rebuilt his engine after using Water Wetter.
As you can see, this material looks a lot like motor oil. It coats
everything it comes into contact with. It would take a lot of flushing to
completely remove this from a cooling system. It's pretty nasty stuff. I can
tell you, it took plenty of work to get it out of our ASTM test rig!
I have heard through the grapevine that the chemist who originally
developed Water Wetter is no longer at Red Line, and none of their existing
technical staff has any background in the area of coolants. For this reason,
they are probably unable to update their formula to any newer types of
technology. And of course, they are not members of ASTM, so they may not
have any access to research or updated test methodology.
I share this info with you for two reasons:
1) Some uninformed consumers may errantly assume this material is motor oil
in their coolant from a blown heat gasket, causing them to perform a costly
motor teardown that is completely unnecessary.
2) There may be consumers who use Red Line Water Wetter before using Purple
Ice. We certainly don't want them to think that Ice caused this. For this
reason, I think our research on this subject may prove helpful at some
point.
We have full documentation to back all of this up. And of course the web is
filled with similar reports. If you Google the words "Water Wetter Brown"
you find scores of them. Feel free to use this info however you may see fit.
"
On 20 Jul , 2016, at 8:47 PM, Scott - IMAP wrote:
> Bottom line..
> I highly recommend Water Wetter.
> ( if a part store doesn't know what it is, they don't know their
> business ..it's great stuff and it works. )
>
> backstory ..
> I run an 85 Adventurewagon ..with 2.1 waterboxer engine.
> I have a 2.1 exhaust , so a 2.1 oil cooler/heat exchanger can be
> fitted, and I have.
>
> A year ago I did just two changes..
> added and plumbed in the 2.1 style oil cooler/heat exchanger, and
> added Water Wetter.
>
> Man that stuff works. I just put my van through hell cooling system
wise...
> rad fan came on when it should ..and a lot ...
> but the cooling system always did the job..
> never lost a drop ..
> never gurgled or anything weird ..
> has a fresh treatment of Water Wetter...and maybe the original
> radiator ( new one is ready to go in ) ...
>
> Next I'm getting a tencentlife engine oil cooler ..
> I run Royal Purple 20W50.
> and I'm still using the early style 1.9 cooling system, and I have all
> the parts to convert it to 2.1 style...
> but it works so perfectly I'm afraid to change anything.
>
> Read what it says on the side of the bottle of Water Wetter..
> they show that lower percentage of a-frz cools better than 50/50 .
> and with Water Wetter ..even mo betta.
>
> Scott
>
>
> and of course..it has a 1.9 cooling system
>
> On 7/20/2016 6:09 PM, Eric Caron wrote:
>> Hi todd,
>>
>> I don't think it is cracked as with the other caps it would hold
pressure after a trip for 5 or more days until I would check it. the
Expansion tank would then fill when I opened the cap. now the tank fills
when cool and there is equal pressure.
>>
>> Eric Caron
>> 85 GL Auto
>>
>>
>>> On Jul 20, 2016, at 8:34 PM, Todd Last <rubatoguy@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> Check your coolant resovour. I have seen them crack near the threads for
the cap in a way they are not easily detected.
>>>
>>> If the cap does not work.
>>>
>>> Sent from XFINITY Connect Mobile App
>>>
>>>
>>> ------ Original Message ------
>>>
>>> From: Eric Caron
>>> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
>>> Sent: July 20, 2016 at 5:23 PM
>>> Subject: Coolant Mystery positive update
>>>
>>> Hi folks,
>>>
>>> Earlier I posted about my concerns with my expansion tank showing
air when running. Also, when stopped for long or short times the pressure
remained high in the tank and air was in the expansion tank. Over flow
seemed to not change. I changed the blue cap several times. Just before
leaving and returning from West River Westies I put on a known good original
VW cap gifted from a friend who had just found another new original.
>>> With the known working cap my system seems to be operating
perfectly again. the expansion tank fills back up after a long trip and the
over flow tank goes down when the appropriately.
>>>
>>> Can my engine heads actually be ok and the other behavior be due
more to the cap? Or, is the cap working well masking the introduction of
the exhaust gasses and now I just don't know they are there?
>>>
>>> It sure acts like a healthy coolant system at the moment!
>>> Eric Caron
>>> 85 GL Auto Westfalia.