Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2016 15:42:32 -0400
Reply-To: Dennis Haynes <d23haynes57@HOTMAIL.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Dennis Haynes <d23haynes57@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Starter related question.
In-Reply-To: <2B3C5A69-DD94-44EF-A330-F7D4A2B4AAF2@NBNet.nb.ca>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Don’t rush on the high power headlights yet. LED's are on their way. I have been experimenting and found some that actually work. If going for the South African set up there are complete LED headlamp assemblies to replace the 7" round. These are becoming available for the Harley and jeep crowd. There are DOT approved ones and some are awesome. Some even have DRL function built in, even with the halo look! The cool thing is that they use much less power than the stock bulbs. The one downside is some of them flicker a bit at idle. I have done the GW LED light kit for all the exterior lights and I am very pleased. I tried sourcing these separately trying to save money but it just isn’t worth the effort. It is really confusing to get the best bulb for brightness, color to lens match, and pattern. I also did the interior LED.
Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On Behalf Of Roy Nicholl
Sent: Monday, July 18, 2016 1:42 PM
To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
Subject: Re: Starter related question.
Dennis:
As always, I appreciated your experience and knowledge.
On the headlight side, my reason for wanting to remove the current from the switch was to enable upgrading of the headlights, which would draw more current. I was planning to upgrade the wiring harness for the lights and use relays to switch the circuits for the head lights rather than pull even more current though the light switch in the dash. The tail lights/marker lights are not an issue and can remain as is. The fog lights are already on their own switch (though I want to replace them with LED lamps and key them off the ignition to be DRLs … I was going to use a relay here, but could simply move them over to the ignition switch since the load will be minimal).
My experience with the T3 is limited, however, I am somewhat familiar with relays / remote switches in the context of automation control systems (building HVAC, industrial motors, etc) where we use low-voltage DC on the control side - more frequently these days, we use digital communications to the {more complicated} switch, but that’s not relevant here. Should it not be possible to use relays and still keep the independence of the existing circuits?
On the ignition side, I’ll defer to your experience. I have not seen the specs on the solenoid and ignition switch {I have not found them yet}, but I am certain the system was designed to handle the load and more. I would think that my moving to a diesel starter (Bosch SR040{8,9}X) should not increase the current draw as the solenoids should be similar in power requirements.
On my old splitty, I installed a relay years ago after the bus was converted to 12v - perhaps it wasn’t necessary, but it’s never given me trouble and the 50+yr old ignition switch is still in fine shape.
I agree that introducing the relays gives another component that can fail, but it should be a cheaper replacement than a headlamp switch or ignition switch?
Roy
> On 18-Jul-2016, at 12:56, Dennis Haynes <d23haynes57@HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
>
> This "need" to get current away from some switches is a bit over rated. At some point most anything can and will fail. The ignition switch design in our Vanagons basically goes all the way back to the 70's with the beetle turning off the headlights with the ignition switch. Yes we now have some quality issues with replacement parts and our wiring systems are degrading but I do not believe in modifications to compensate for poor trouble shooting or parts quality.
>
> Adding headlight relays is a bit different as there is a potential for increasing the lighting performance. The fix here is more about getting a shorter and less loaded path from the power source and not the switch itself. However there are some problems even with the way these relays are usually added.
>
> As originally wired the light switches are mechanically operated. The outside lights have major fuse coordination. Rear lights fused separately right-left and the fronts are fused right-left and high-low beams. Short something out and you lose one light. Lose a coil on one of those relays and both sides are out. The Americans take a different approach. During a short the lights will flash giving you time to get off the road and how often do you see cars with the taillights not working.
>
> Go a step further. Most relay installations do fuse the coils. Yes, there is a lot of wiring and a number critical circuits in the vanagon that are not fused. Fuel pump. ECU, ignition etc. But coils and light bulbs are parts that fail and can fail shorted.
>
> For the starter, the solenoid itself is a relay. It also has the job of operating the starter gear. But is a relay for the starter motor itself. This larger relay coil also presents an inductive load. On release as the magnetic field collapses it can generate a high voltage spike. This is how an ignition coil basically works. The switch has to be designed to quickly make for a large enough air gap to resist this spike or something used to absorb it. This is where proper relay selection comes in. For the few times I have succumbed to adding a starter helper relay I get one designed for inuctive loads which usully means good spring and doulble break contacts.
>
> Dennis
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On
> Behalf Of Roy Nicholl
> Sent: Friday, July 15, 2016 1:58 PM
> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
> Subject: Re: Starter related question.
>
> Dennis,
>
> Point taken. I was aware of the cruse-control issue (this vehicle does not have cruise control), but not with the fridge.
>
> My main objective with moving to a starter relay was the same as my plans to install headlight relays - to get current out of the switch. Is there another, better way to achieve this?
>
>
>> On 15-Jul-2016, at 14:51, Dennis Haynes <d23haynes57@HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
>>
>> I just have a problem with still needing a relay as part of the fix. There are circuit considerations for the Westy fridge relay and cruise control. It is also another point of failure especially when the wrong relay is used. Having the contacts weld or operate the starter when they shouldn't is of major concern and it does happen.
>>
>> Dennis,
>> From my phone.
>> From: Roy Nicholl <mailto:RNicholl@NBNET.NB.CA>
>> Sent: 7/15/2016 9:20 AM
>> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM <mailto:vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
>> Subject: Re: Starter related question.
>>
>> Dennis:
>>
>> The GoWesty starter is nice, but almost $500 CAD by the time it gets here. I can get a Bosch SR0408x plus adapter and relay for about 50-60% of that amount. Granted, the WBX prolly doesn’t need the cranking power of the diesel starter and the lower power draw of the GW starter would be nice, but …. I just bought an LT and have made an offer on a 1.6TD Westy … while $200 on a starter is a small saving, I’m sure it will need to be spent elsewhere.
>>
>> I see other aftermarket starters for sale, but am loath to try one.
>>
>> Roy
>>
>>> On 15-Jul-2016, at 09:51, Dennis Haynes <d23haynes57@HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
>>>
>>> No need to remove the throttle body, but removing the boot helps to reach that nut. The GW starter is also a great option and the better solenoid eliminates the benefit of adding a helper relay.
>>>
>>> Dennis,
>>> From my phone.
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: Roy Nicholl<mailto:RNicholl@NBNET.NB.CA
>>> <mailto:RNicholl@NBNET.NB.CA>>
>>> Sent: 7/15/2016 7:17 AM
>>> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM<mailto:vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
>>> Subject: Re: Starter related question.
>>>
>>> That was my assessment of the situation. I was a little confused by the “remove the throttle body”, then I realized he was talking about going at the starter from the top. I plan to tackle it from underneath.
>>>
>>> Once I have confirmation the starter is indeed dead, I am debating a shift to a TDi starter (SR0408X) w/ adaptor, rather than another WBX starter. It still looks like I should have room to install the larger starter without having to remove an axle.
>>>
>>>> On 14-Jul-2016, at 21:54, OlRivrRat <OlRivrRat@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> If It Is a 2WD there is no reason to remove anything other
>>>> than the Cables & SecuringBolts ~
>>>>
>>>> Access is QuiteGood from DownUnder, Preferably with the BackEnd Up
>>>> On Ramps ~
>>>>
>>>> Battery Should, OfCourse, be disconnected 1st ~
>>>>
>>>> ORR ~ DeanB
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 14 Jul , 2016, at 3:46 PM, C. Abney wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Things you have to remove to pull the starter: the battery
>>>>> ground(:-*), and (probably) the throttle body. At least, doing
>>>>> that makes removing that long hex head screw easy.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't think you have to remove the axle. I can't say for sure
>>>>> though, because when I removed the starter on my vanagon I had
>>>>> already removed the axles.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 7/13/16, Roy Nicholl <RNicholl@nbnet.nb.ca> wrote:
>>>>>> All,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tuesday morning we had a “no crank” situation in the Hyena (’88
>>>>>> 2.1 WBX) and were “late for swimming lessons” as I shifted the
>>>>>> kid pod from the Westy back to "Mom’s car”.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My multimeter and kit is at another location - I’ll fetch it on
>>>>>> Friday - but today at lunch I had 15-minutes so I pulled the plug
>>>>>> off the ignition switch and stuck a strand of 14/2 Nomax between 12V and 50. I head what sounded
>>>>>> like the solenoid “slam” into place, but only the once. I then went aft
>>>>>> with my stand of 14/2 and bridged #50 at the solenoid … nothing.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Batter seems fine … according to the simple meter on the charger
>>>>>> … will measure this again with multimeter.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So it is looking like the {original} starter has packed it in …
>>>>>> I’ll go out on Saturday morning with the meter just to make
>>>>>> certain I’m getting all the required voltage at all the required places.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> While I was under there, I noted there is nothing attached to #16
>>>>>> on the solenoid … isn’t there suppose to be a connection to the
>>>>>> ignition system
>>>>>> (coil) here?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Let’s assume I need to replace the starter.
>>>>>> 1) Do I really need to disconnect the right axle to do this {as I
>>>>>> was told over the phone today}? It looks like I should be able
>>>>>> to get at all the bolts (after a little cleaning) … not as easy
>>>>>> as the ’66, but should be possible.
>>>>>> 2) Is there an improvement that can be made over the OEM starter? {i.e.
>>>>>> something like a starter from a mk2 jetta i4 that is cheaper to
>>>>>> procure}
>>>>>> 3) Is a rebuilt starter worth the cost savings (50%)?
>>>>>> 4) Was there any significant change in the starter over the
>>>>>> years? The Hyena is a 1988, but I know of a possible ’84 donor nearby.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I also noted a couple more ground straps that need
>>>>>> cleaning/attention (including the one between the solenoid and starter) … I’ll take care of
>>>>>> these before ordering a new starter. I’ve never had a starter fail
>>>>>> completely w/o any prior warning before, so I’m not 100%
>>>>>> convinced I do not have another notoriously bad ground/earth.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I may as well use this as an opportunity to remove all that
>>>>>> current from the ignition switch and install some additional relays.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Roy
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> There's no .sig like the present
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