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Date:         Thu, 21 Jul 2016 22:56:25 -0400
Reply-To:     Dennis Haynes <d23haynes57@HOTMAIL.COM>
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From:         Dennis Haynes <d23haynes57@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Coolant Mystery positive update - WATER WETTER
Comments: To: OlRivrRat <OlRivrRat@COMCAST.NET>
In-Reply-To:  <A0C5B3E2-ED4F-4FC8-91B8-66095C265369@comcast.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I would like to say thank you for posting this. I was trying to figure out a way to respond the Water wetter posts. Products like this have their place but for most this is snake oil. The lower gauge readings are possibly caused by the sludge-coating actually reducing the transfer of heat to the coolant. The so called benefit of these lower readings is also only a benefit in a system where the coolant is saturated and no longer under thermostatic control. I'll also add that I don't completely trust reports from a company reporting on a competitors product.

That said, I have a lot of experience with specialty coolants used in industrial applications and some knowledge of some special requirements for industrial and Diesel engines. Ford Power Stroke owners years ago learned the hard way about cylinder cavitation erosion which large Diesel engine operator knew about for years. They used to use supplemental coolant additives, mostly wetting agents to combat this. There were even filters with time-release elements to keep this stuff in check. When I first got my motor home I would test the coolant and add SCA's as needed to maintain a certain level. Now there are long and extended life coolants that reduce or even eliminate these concerns and provide very long service life. Global Final Charge is good for 6 years-600,000 miles with only a one time addition of additives.

I pay attention to these coolants as heavy duty diesels have one thing in common with the Waterboxer. They have separate sleeves for cylinders. These special coolant have the wetting agents to prevent the cavitation erosion issue on these "liners" and studs. I have been using the Final Charge in Fun us and a number of other vehicles for a number of years. They work! The one thing has seem to changed is the reduction of water pump seal failure. The down is that the wetting agents work by reducing the surface tension of water. This means that even smaller openings become leaks and this stuff leaves a trail so the leaks are obvious.

Just like using the proper oil, using a good quality coolant along with quality water, no further additives should be needed. The Vanagon cooling system has massive capacity considering the size of the engine. It should work without snake oil.

Dennis

-----Original Message----- From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On Behalf Of OlRivrRat Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2016 12:51 AM To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM Subject: Re: Coolant Mystery positive update - WATER WETTER

Some Info of Possible Interest ~ This appears to be 4Yr Old Info ~

" Greg Theisz Southeast Regional Manager Cell 713-253-3422 Fax 210-568-2940 gtheisz@royalpurple.com

We recently had a consumer provide us with a coolant sample that he thought had been contaminated with motor oil from a blown head gasket. We performed an analysis, and found it wasn't motor oil. It was polysiloxane polymer (i.e. silicone) from Red Line Water Wetter. He had been using this product for several years, adding a couple bottles per year.

Seeing this prompted us to look into the issue further in the controlled environment of our coolant test lab.

We setup our ASTM D2570 Simulated Service coolant test rig, and ran Water Wetter through repeated heat/cool cycles. We found that after 8-10 cycles, the polysiloxane polymer become completely insoluble. After another 5-6 cycles, it turned brown, and began coating the inside of the radiator. After another 15-20 cycles, it turned darker brown, and in the high heat area of the system became thicker in consistency -- almost like molasses.

As mentioned in a previous report on this topic, Red Line uses polysiloxane polymer as an antifoam ingredient in their Water Wetter formula. This is "old technology," as there are now far more sophisticated antifoam ingredients available for coolant. The problem with polysiloxane is that it is only marginally soluble in water, and polymerizes through repeated heating/cooling cycles.

Have a look at the attached photos. Two of them are glass beakers containing the Water Wetter/water solution drained from our ASTM test rig at the conclusion of the test. The other one is the coolant reservoir of the consumer who needlessly rebuilt his engine after using Water Wetter.

As you can see, this material looks a lot like motor oil. It coats everything it comes into contact with. It would take a lot of flushing to completely remove this from a cooling system. It's pretty nasty stuff. I can tell you, it took plenty of work to get it out of our ASTM test rig!

I have heard through the grapevine that the chemist who originally developed Water Wetter is no longer at Red Line, and none of their existing technical staff has any background in the area of coolants. For this reason, they are probably unable to update their formula to any newer types of technology. And of course, they are not members of ASTM, so they may not have any access to research or updated test methodology.

I share this info with you for two reasons:

1) Some uninformed consumers may errantly assume this material is motor oil in their coolant from a blown heat gasket, causing them to perform a costly motor teardown that is completely unnecessary.

2) There may be consumers who use Red Line Water Wetter before using Purple Ice. We certainly don't want them to think that Ice caused this. For this reason, I think our research on this subject may prove helpful at some point.

We have full documentation to back all of this up. And of course the web is filled with similar reports. If you Google the words "Water Wetter Brown" you find scores of them. Feel free to use this info however you may see fit. "

On 20 Jul , 2016, at 8:47 PM, Scott - IMAP wrote:

> Bottom line.. > I highly recommend Water Wetter. > ( if a part store doesn't know what it is, they don't know their > business ..it's great stuff and it works. ) > > backstory .. > I run an 85 Adventurewagon ..with 2.1 waterboxer engine. > I have a 2.1 exhaust , so a 2.1 oil cooler/heat exchanger can be > fitted, and I have. > > A year ago I did just two changes.. > added and plumbed in the 2.1 style oil cooler/heat exchanger, and > added Water Wetter. > > Man that stuff works. I just put my van through hell cooling system wise... > rad fan came on when it should ..and a lot ... > but the cooling system always did the job.. > never lost a drop .. > never gurgled or anything weird .. > has a fresh treatment of Water Wetter...and maybe the original > radiator ( new one is ready to go in ) ... > > Next I'm getting a tencentlife engine oil cooler .. > I run Royal Purple 20W50. > and I'm still using the early style 1.9 cooling system, and I have all > the parts to convert it to 2.1 style... > but it works so perfectly I'm afraid to change anything. > > Read what it says on the side of the bottle of Water Wetter.. > they show that lower percentage of a-frz cools better than 50/50 . > and with Water Wetter ..even mo betta. > > Scott > > > and of course..it has a 1.9 cooling system > > On 7/20/2016 6:09 PM, Eric Caron wrote: >> Hi todd, >> >> I don't think it is cracked as with the other caps it would hold pressure after a trip for 5 or more days until I would check it. the Expansion tank would then fill when I opened the cap. now the tank fills when cool and there is equal pressure. >> >> Eric Caron >> 85 GL Auto >> >> >>> On Jul 20, 2016, at 8:34 PM, Todd Last <rubatoguy@comcast.net> wrote: >>> >>> Check your coolant resovour. I have seen them crack near the threads for the cap in a way they are not easily detected. >>> >>> If the cap does not work. >>> >>> Sent from XFINITY Connect Mobile App >>> >>> >>> ------ Original Message ------ >>> >>> From: Eric Caron >>> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM >>> Sent: July 20, 2016 at 5:23 PM >>> Subject: Coolant Mystery positive update >>> >>> Hi folks, >>> >>> Earlier I posted about my concerns with my expansion tank showing air when running. Also, when stopped for long or short times the pressure remained high in the tank and air was in the expansion tank. Over flow seemed to not change. I changed the blue cap several times. Just before leaving and returning from West River Westies I put on a known good original VW cap gifted from a friend who had just found another new original. >>> With the known working cap my system seems to be operating perfectly again. the expansion tank fills back up after a long trip and the over flow tank goes down when the appropriately. >>> >>> Can my engine heads actually be ok and the other behavior be due more to the cap? Or, is the cap working well masking the introduction of the exhaust gasses and now I just don't know they are there? >>> >>> It sure acts like a healthy coolant system at the moment! >>> Eric Caron >>> 85 GL Auto Westfalia.


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