Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2016 13:45:42 -0600
Reply-To: OlRivrRat <OlRivrRat@COMCAST.NET>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: OlRivrRat <OlRivrRat@COMCAST.NET>
Subject: Re: Ignition Switches and Hot Start Relay and Starter Motors
(long)
In-Reply-To: <1938814200.1315098.1473360215723@mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
All of this that You've done is GoodStuff but I'd like to Add ~ Considering that the Eng'Ground is Connected to the IntakeMani' &
The Trany to Frame Ground is @ the the Opposite End of the Trany from the Starter, I Like to Add a Dedicated Ground between 1 of the
Starter MountingBolts & a VeryNearBy VeryClean Point on the Body (Usually in the Eng'Bay on the FireWall) ~ Can't Hurt & Easy to do ~
ORR ~ DeanB
On 8 Sep , 2016, at 12:43 PM, Richard Koerner wrote:
> I went ahead and investigated the connections at the braided copper ground strap that goes from the Subie engine to the driver's side body. There was no gross corrosion....but I used sandpaper on front and back surfaces of all contact areas to get them all nice and shiny (including two lugs on brown wires from some harness that also uses this ground point). I also scraped away with a knife the painted surface of the body where the bolt holding the ground strap goes.
>
> The other end of the copper strap goes to a metal bracket (for routing/holding the #3 and #1 spark plug wires) which in turn is bolted to the cast aluminum intake manifold on the driver side of the Subie engine. Interestingly enough, this metal bracket was painted black; and there was paint on the contact surface where it meets the aluminum intake manifold, and also where the ground strap was connected to the metal bracket. I figured that wasn't a good idea...so again used sandpaper to remove the paint from the metal bracket at the contact points and also scraped clean the contact area at the intake manifold.
> Bolted everything back up quite tightly; I'm confident I did a good job.
> Also, I replaced the Meyle ignition switch with the Kostal ignition switch. Feels different, in a good way: the engine fires without the key turned fully clockwise, there is a little margin of extra turn space. I think this subtle design feature as well as the black glass-filled (I think) nylon lower half of the ignition switch makes the Kostal brand superior.
> I need to take Vanagon out for a test drive and get everything nice and hot and see how the starting goes.
> Thanks again Brent for the tip about that main engine ground strap.
>
> Rich
>
>
> From: Richard Koerner <rjkinpb@SBCGLOBAL.NET>
> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
> Sent: Thursday, September 8, 2016 8:10 AM
> Subject: Re: Ignition Switches and Hot Start Relay and Starter Motors (long)
>
> Thanks for this suggestion, Brent. I'm going over to my Subie Converter this afternoon; I will print out this email from you and discuss with him.
> Rich
>
> From: Brent Weide <brent.weide@GMAIL.COM>
> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
> Sent: Thursday, September 8, 2016 8:02 AM
> Subject: Re: Ignition Switches and Hot Start Relay and Starter Motors (long)
>
> Rich: I was having trouble with the starter installed in my 91 multivan
> with 99ej25 suby engine. I troubleshoot all of the electrical connections
> similar to your experience until I finally came on a loose ground cable
> near the transaxle (automatic) mount running to the frame of the van.
> Cleaned the mating surface where the cable connected, tightened, and the
> result was solid starts since.
> With the conversions i"ve been a part of i always make sure that the subaru
> engine is also grounded to the van body using the stock vanagon copper
> ground strap located at about 9 oclock in the engine bay.
> All the best,
> Brent
>
> On Thu, Sep 8, 2016 at 7:04 AM, Richard Koerner <rjkinpb@sbcglobal.net>
> wrote:
>
>> Thanks, Larry. The relay kit I have in my hand is the one from Bus Depot:
>> http://www.busdepot.com/wr1
>> On the side of the relay, it says, "12 V 20/30 A". Hopefully this is
>> adequate to do the job.
>> Rich
>>
>> From: Larry Alofs <lalofs@GMAIL.COM>
>> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
>> Sent: Thursday, September 8, 2016 6:33 AM
>> Subject: Re: Ignition Switches and Hot Start Relay and Starter Motors
>> (long)
>>
>> Rich,
>> I've had this problem on multiple vans before I started installing
>> relays. We used to carry a hammer to hit the starter while someone else
>> was twisting the key. I later learned that you could use a broomstick
>> inserted over the back wheel.
>> Do the relay, but try to get one that can handle inductive loads without
>> the contacts welding together. (Bad thing)
>>
>> If you search back thru the archives you will find this discussed many
>> times.
>>
>> Larry A.
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Sep 7, 2016 at 9:43 PM, Richard Koerner <rjkinpb@sbcglobal.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi gang,
>>> OK...details first...85 Tintop, Manual Tranny, 235,000 miles. Subie EJ
>>> 2.2 conversion done 15,000 miles ago at California Westys in San Diego.
>>> Always garaged, but only 1 mile from salty ocean.
>>>
>>> I've had starting problems. Essentially "turn key, nothing happens".
>>> This means no crank of motor. No click, no nothing. But sit there and
>>> wait for 10-30 minutes...magically starts....so far.
>>>
>>> Mostly has happened after a long freeway run, several hours. Would pull
>>> into lunch spot, eat lunch (30 minutes) so now car has cooled off, start
>> up
>>> car, no problem; go across street to get gas; try to start car; turn key,
>>> nothing happens. Wait 10 minutes---starts and runs perfectly.
>>> So....I first thought this must be ignition switch problem. Bought one
>> at
>>> Napa, the only game in town. Was happy, got me back home. But problem
>>> reappeared. If I would apply PRESSURE tangentially to key in switch (not
>>> axially), a lot of times I would get immediate fire and start.
>>>
>>> OK...went to a Meyle-Brand switch from Van-Cafe....I figured THAT will
>>> solve it....good ole German engineering.
>>> As a backup, I also saw that Bus Depot had the Kostal-Brand ignition
>>> switch; rated as TOP QUALITY OEM; so I bought one for backup. Have NOT
>>> installed it...yet.
>>>
>>> So currently Meyle-Brand switch is in van; went to mechanic today to fix
>> a
>>> broken shifter bushing; they tried to start car...wouldn't....banged on
>>> starter with rubber mallet...it started. He noted that when key was
>>> turned, control panel would light up; turn key to Start and control panel
>>> lights would dim, indicating a heavy suck of electrical power, but still
>>> NOTHIN.
>>>
>>> So now the problem seems to shift to STARTER. When the guys did the
>> Subie
>>> installation, they installed a BRAND NEW Hi-Torque starter from Kennedy
>>> (KEP). This is to handle the higher compression of a Subie motor vs. a
>> 1.9
>>> waterboxer. And apparently there are some problems with the KEP starter
>>> motor. Converter was a little frustrated about that; but mostly
>> "whirring"
>>> starter problems and intermittent at that. MY problem is NO NOTHIN.
>>>
>>> I've looked carefully at the Kostal switch; it's black on the bottom,
>>> white on top (all the others are all white). I used my 5X
>> eyeloupe....yes,
>>> it appears that the white is just Nylon, while the black is filled with a
>>> little fibreglass, maybe 10% or so, just a guess; still is probably
>> nylon.
>>> But needed rigidity and better resistance against heat; glass is perfect
>>> for that.
>>>
>>> I read on Samba where high current loads make things HOT fast in the
>>> ignition switch; the plastic "melts" a little each time, and the contacts
>>> gradually start shifting...and moving away from each other. This makes
>>> sense; is this why TOP BRAND Kostal has black glass-filled nylon on the
>>> lower half; more resistant to heat and stiffer and stronger and a little
>>> more expensive?
>>> So how to solve this mess...One option is the "Hot Start Relay".
>>> Actually, I bought a kit. The idea is that you don't run all that
>> amperage
>>> through the starter switch, and in addition you don't go through many
>> feet
>>> of 30 year old wires and connections. Switch triggers a relay; the relay
>>> provides HEFTY current to starter solenoid. This makes sense to me.
>>> Biggest downside is that it adds one more possible failure point; and
>>> harder to diagnose; and of course some modest additional expense...but
>> hey,
>>> we own Vanagons so that's not a big deal!
>>> At this point, what I'm leaning toward is use the Kostal ignition switch
>>> and the Hot Start Relay setup.
>>> Sorry for the long post, but headed out in a week for a 5,000 mile from
>>> San Diego to Wisconsin (family reunion) and the only backup I can think
>> of
>>> is to always park downhill so as to bump the starter....but that's no fun
>>> for sleeping.
>>>
>>> Rich
>>> San Diego
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Brent Weide
> Portland, Oregon
> www.weidefamily.net/vanagon/
>
>
>
>
>
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