Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2016 11:03:00 -0800
Reply-To: David McNeely <davmcneely40@GMAIL.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: David McNeely <davmcneely40@GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: More Mr heater..
In-Reply-To: <147E7E15-8F93-4077-BB17-75246CA5164F@shaw.ca>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Well, the science is uncontestable. When propane burns (doesn't matter the
device) it produces water in a quantifiable amount based on the chemistry
involved. Don's perception is also uncontestable. His van interior
surfaces remain dry in the conditions under which he runs his heater. More
data could tell us why, but a reasonable hypothesis is that the surfaces
are warm enough at the humidity prevailing to prevent condensation on them.
There is no "fake science" involved.
On Thu, Dec 22, 2016 at 9:51 AM, Alistair Bell <albell@shaw.ca> wrote:
> Yes it's all perception. I mean I have no argument with don liking his
> heater and that it works for him. I do have a problem with the fake news
> statement.
>
> Don did not supply us with the data. Outside temp and rel humidity. Inside
> temp and rel humidity. Etc.
>
> We need that kind of info as well as his subjective assessment that the
> water produced by the heater is manageable.
>
> I'm really not trying to be a pillock about all this. I like discussions
> about the heaters but I also like to have some ground rules :-)
>
> Alistair
>
>
>
>
> On Dec 22, 2016, at 9:19 AM, David McNeely <davmcneely40@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Alistair, how dare you to bring scientific facts to a modern discussion
> ;-} !
>
> Of course, the important fact for Don is whether or not he perceives the
> interior of his van as wet. I too have experienced steaming up with the
> cooktop. It may be that when Don is running the heater, the interior
> surfaces are warm, and the moisture does not condense, but that when we run
> the stove without a heater, the interior surfaces are cool, and the
> moisture condenses. Moisture does not condense on my drink glasses at home
> unless I put ice in them.
>
> mcneely
>
> On Thu, Dec 22, 2016 at 8:58 AM, Alistair Bell <albell@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
>> It's not that dons perceptions are invalid. It's rather that burning
>> propane does produce water ( in the environment we live in anyway) and the
>> amount of water produced is predictable. Predictable with some certainty
>> and is not fake news.
>>
>> If that water vapour is noticeable or not, is another issue. I worked it
>> out as almost 3 cups of water for every pound of propane burned. If that
>> seems like a lot or not, is up to you :-)
>>
>> I think I balanced the equations and made reasonable assumptions in the
>> following.
>> For a one pounder, and lets make assumption that no CO is produced, ie
>> the heater is working perfectly, and that there are 16 oz to the lb, or 454
>> g.
>>
>> combustion equation:
>>
>> C3H8 + 5O2 -----> 3 CO2 + 4H2O
>>
>> i.e. for every mole of propane burned, we get 4 moles of water.
>>
>> molecular weight of propane = 44 g/mol
>>
>> moles per 1 lb bottle = 454/44 = 10.3 moles
>>
>> therefore burning the entire bottle would produce 4(10.3) = 41.2 moles of
>> water
>>
>> molecular weight of water = 18 g/mole
>>
>> therefore 18(41.2) = 741.6 g of water produced.
>>
>> almost 3 cups of water into the van when one pound of propane burned.
>>
>>
>> alistair
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Dec 22, 2016, at 8:42 AM, Patrick Spragge <spraggepat@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > Perhaps I'll comment on these 2 messages on Friday.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Patrick Spragge
>> >
>> >> On Dec 22, 2016, at 8:27 AM, Alistair Bell <albell@SHAW.CA> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> If you look at the chemistry of propane combustion and you spend some
>> time to understand it, then you will see how much water vapour is produced
>> per unit of propane burned.
>> >>
>> >> It's is not fake news or exageraration. It's basic science. As
>> unpopular as science is these days, it still rules.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Alistair
>> >>
>> >>> On Dec 22, 2016, at 8:20 AM, Don Hanson <dhanson928@GMAIL.COM> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> The word was the Mr. Heater, and others, catalytic propane, create a
>> lot of
>> >>> water vapour in a Vanagon. That seems to be fake news, or perhaps an
>> >>> exaggeration.
>> >>> I've been running two now, in the wet southwest desert, one in a camp
>> >>> trailer and one in the "annex" (my Vanagon) Fairly humid here
>> now,and no
>> >>> interior moisture problem at all. Perhaps the catalytic combustion is
>> >>> dryer than people have said..
>> >>> Now when I ignite the Westie cook top, the Vanagon steams right up,
>> >>> immediately.
>> >>> So there you go, a report of one family's (two humans and three
>> large
>> >>> Chesepeake dogs, full timing with two Mr. Heaters as our comfort heat)
>>
>
>
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