Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2017 06:12:20 -0700
Reply-To: Andrew Martin <ramblinvan@GMAIL.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Andrew Martin <ramblinvan@GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: advice on new propane tank
In-Reply-To: <CAMOH8L+LUxzy45ZAXf+Ro9NvWHhaqYuYeEbBydyFd+yejHeUng@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
What David and Karl said...
I worked as a Propane tech in another life and purging new and recently serviced Propane tanks was and is REQUIRED! Folks that say it doesn't matter obviously have no real world experience and no business dispensing advice on the subject. It's quick, it's easy and it will save a lot of potential headache if it's not done.
Karl has shared some possible issues associated with NOT purging your Propane tank. The non-purgers may never experience any of the side effects BUT if and when they do, they will NEVER forget those precious 20 minutes they saved... NEVER! More than likely, they will blame their troubles on a bad regulator, the last guy that refilled their tank or, even more absurdly, the guy that last worked on their Vanagon even though the work was totally unrelated to the Propane system. Ha!
If you are afraid of working with Propane please don't. While it's no more dangerous than refilling your Vanagon or lawn mower with gasoline, practical and common sense is REQUIRED! Fear spreads faster and farther than knowledge so by all means, please STOP sharing your ignorance and irrational fear of Propane! If you aren't up for the task perhaps you could recommend your local Propane professional and move on? Seriously!
Anyone want to talk about tires? Ha! Ha!
Sent from my iPad
> On Mar 23, 2017, at 6:23 PM, David Beierl <dbeierl@ATTGLOBAL.NET> wrote:
>
> From Bergquist's LP Gas Service Technician's Handbook:
>
> PURGING PROPANE GAS CONTAINERS Purging Propane Gas Containers is the
> removal of water and air from the containers prior to installation and
> filling at a customer’s site or at the bulk plant. Water and air in a
> propane container will seriously contaminate and interfere with an entire
> propane system, resulting in improper operation of not only the system, but
> also the customer’s appliances. Improper operation will result in costly
> service calls and needless extra expense. Both ASME and DOT specifications
> require water and air be purged from all containers before being placed in
> service. Further, the procedure MUST always be performed at the bulk plant
> and NEVER at the customer’s location.
>
> Neutralizing Water
>
> Even though the inside of a container may appear to have no visible
> moisture present, condensation may have formed on the interior walls, plus
> the air inside the container may have a relative humidity up to 100%. To
> neutralize this moisture, use Anhydrous Methanol in amounts according to
> the chart below. Note the Anhydrous Methanol must be 99.85% pure. Under NO
> circumstances should any substitute products be used.
>
> Container Type Minimum Volume Methanol Required 100 lb. ICC cylinder 420
> lb. ICC cylinder 500 gal. tank 1000 gal. tank 1/8 pt. (2 fl. ozs.) 1/2 pt.
> (8 fl. ozs.) 5 pts. (21/2 qts.) 10 pts. (11/4 gal.)
>
> Purging Air
> There is a natural volume of air in all propane containers that must be
> removed before the first fill. The correct procedure for purging air is as
> follows. Note that it MUST be done at the bulk plant site, NEVER at the
> customer’s location.
> 1. Install an unloading adapter on the double check filler valve, leaving
> it in the closed position.
> 2. Install a gauge adapter assembly on the service valve POL outlet
> connection. Exhaust to atmosphere any air pressure in the container.
> 3. Attach a propane vapor hose from another container to the vapor return
> valve on the container to be purged.
> 4. Open the valve on the outlet end of the vapor hose and carefully observe
> the pressure gauge.
> 5. When the gauge reading shows 15 psig, shut off the vapor valve on the
> hose.
> 6. Switch the lever on the unloading adapter to open the double check
> filler valve and blow down to exhaustion.
> 7. Close the unloading adapter lever, allowing the double check filler
> valve to close.
> 8. Repeat steps (4), (5), (6), and (7) four more times. Total required time
> is 15 minutes or less.
>
> After performing the previous steps, the percent of air in the container is
> reduced as shown in the following table: % Air Remaining % Propane
> Remaining 1st Purging 2nd Purging 3rd Purging 4th Purging 5th Purging 6th
> Purging 50 25 12.5 6.25 3.13 1.56 50 75 87.5 93.75 96.87 98.44
>
>> On Thu, Mar 23, 2017 at 8:41 PM, David Beierl <dbeierl@attglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>> It's not intended to be a do it yourself exercise working on propane
>> tanks, people who do it are taking responsibility on themselves and may be
>> skirting the regs. I've done it and would again, but I would certainly not
>> want to outguess the pros on this.
>>
>> Yrs,
>> d
>>
>>> On Thu, Mar 23, 2017 at 8:33 PM, Brett Ne <brettn777@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Disclaimer: I'm not a propane person. I really question the need for
>>> purging and, if it were that dangerous to not purge the tank before use,
>>> the tanks would surely come from the manufacturer filled with inert gas for
>>> liability reasons.
>>>
>>> 1. Yes, at some point during filling, there will be a gaseous mixture
>>> capable of ignition. That ignition would require a spark. Where is that
>>> spark going to come from? It's a steel tank whose only moving part might
>>> be a float, which is probably made from brass. The filling apparatus is
>>> also brass, a non-sparking metal. Even if a lightning bolt hit the tank,
>>> the tank acts as a Faraday cage that prevents the current from passing
>>> inside the tank cavity.
>>>
>>> 2. Even if somehow the mixture does ignite during or after filling,
>>> there really isn't that much oxygen in that space and the resulting
>>> pressure shock wave is not going to be that great. The steel tank is
>>> designed to hold a high amount of pressure.
>>>
>>> I may be wrong, and if so, I'd like to be corrected. All this talk of
>>> playing around with filling and draining the tank with propane vapor sounds
>>> far more dangerous than filling an unpurged tank with liquid propane.
>>>
>>>
>>> Brett
>>>
>>> On Thu, Mar 23, 2017 at 4:15 PM, David Beierl <dbeierl@attglobal.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I've been poking around a little. One purge method is to pull a vacuum
>>>> on
>>>> the tank and allow it to fill with propane vapor; another is to fill with
>>>> propane vapor and vent to atmosphere "several times" -- sounds like
>>>> that's
>>>> what your outfit did. That's perfectly sensible, not the same at all as
>>>> filling five times with liquid propane.
>>>>
>>>> Yrs,
>>>> d
>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Mar 22, 2017 at 6:45 PM, Neil2 <vidublu@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I'd never visit that place again. Insane there are places operating
>>>> like
>>>>> that (5x).
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Mar 22, 2017 at 10:52 AM, David McNeely <
>>>> davmcneely40@gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hmmm..... . I bought a new GoWesty tank and had it installed
>>>> locally. I
>>>>>> asked the mechanic where to have it purged, and he recommended a
>>>> local RV
>>>>>> dealer. I took it there. I am certain that the place did not use a
>>>>> "purge
>>>>>> kit." The person who first was going to do it said that he had to
>>>> simply
>>>>>> fill it, empty it, and refill it again. I was dubious, and asked the
>>>>> shop
>>>>>> foreman, who said no, it required five times. So, that is what they
>>>> did.
>>>>>> There was no portable tank involved.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have not used the propane since. I plan to use it in two weeks
>>>> from
>>>>>> now. What do I do to make sure the tank is safe? This was not a
>>>> small
>>>>>> expenditure, but I did it for safety. Now I am not confident that
>>>> it is
>>>>>> safe.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> mcneely
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, Mar 22, 2017 at 10:32 AM, Stuart MacMillan <
>>>> stuartmacm@gmail.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I've been using a Worthington 3lb tank for a couple of years. I
>>>> love
>>>>> it,
>>>>>>> and it fits nicely under the seat. I now carry one 1lb bottle for
>>>> when
>>>>> it
>>>>>>> runs out, but if you weigh it after use, you can usually avoid
>>>> running
>>>>>> out.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Just take it to a propane filler, it purges with the fill. They
>>>> open
>>>>> the
>>>>>>> release valve and air is pushed out and replaced with liquid
>>>> propane
>>>>> and
>>>>>>> vapor. I don't think you'll be able to fill it yourself since
>>>> modern
>>>>> auto
>>>>>>> stop portable tanks do not allow rapid flow from the valve, and I
>>>> also
>>>>>>> think the auto stop float will shut off the tank when upside down.
>>>>>> Besides,
>>>>>>> it's not a good idea, and not even worth the trouble even if you
>>>> could.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Those safety features were designed to protect us from ourselves!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Stuart
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On
>>>>> Behalf
>>>>>>> Of Neil2
>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2017 10:02 AM
>>>>>>> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: advice on new propane tank
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> David,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Please tell the kids on FB since this could save a Vanagon, er a
>>>> kids
>>>>>> life
>>>>>>> I mean!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Wed, Mar 22, 2017 at 6:09 AM, David Beierl <
>>>> dbeierl@attglobal.net>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> They're full of air to start. That's too lean to burn. In use
>>>>>>>> they're full of propane which is too rich to burn. You have to
>>>> get a
>>>>>>>> new tank past the point of containing an explosive mixture
>>>> before you
>>>>>>>> can use it or the first time you light something it could flash
>>>> back
>>>>>>>> through the lines and blow the tank apart.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yrs,
>>>>>>>> d
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Wed, Mar 22, 2017 at 6:36 AM, Roman Haag <romanhaag@ymail.com
>>>>>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So a new tank needs to be purged? I did not know this.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Sent from someone's plumbing
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 22, 2017, at 01:37, David Beierl <
>>>> dbeierl@ATTGLOBAL.NET>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Off the cuff -- I'd take it to any propane place to purge.
>>>>> During
>>>>>>>>> purging
>>>>>>>>>> at some point there will be an explosive mixture in the
>>>> tank, you
>>>>>>>>>> don't want to be around if it finds a spark.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Yrs,
>>>>>>>>>> d
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Mar 21, 2017 at 9:32 PM, gary hradek <
>>>> hradek@yahoo.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I just bought a Worthington Pro Grade 4.25 lb. Empty Propane
>>>>> Tank
>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>>>>> Home Depot to use with my Colemanstove. The 1 pound
>>>> cylinders
>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>>> nowclose to 8 dollars a piece. I was goingto fill it from
>>>> the
>>>>> 20
>>>>>>>> pound
>>>>>>>>>>> tank but they say something about purging it. Can I just
>>>> fill
>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> empty
>>>>>>>>>>> it a few timeswith propane vapor before trying to fill it
>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> liquid
>>>>>>>>>>> by inverting the 20pound tank? I am guessing there is
>>>> acharge
>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>> purged somewhere?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Gary
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Neil2
>>>>>>> '82 Diesel Westfalia (Ducky)
>>>>>>> '86 Vanagon (SaVannah)
>>>>>>> '08 170" 2500 Mega Roof Sprinter (Moby)
>>>>>>> '90 Westfalia Subagon (SaL)
>>>>>>> Fulltiming since August 2008
>>>>>>> Nunquam Pendite Divendium
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Neil2
>>>>> '82 Diesel Westfalia (Ducky)
>>>>> '86 Vanagon (SaVannah)
>>>>> '08 170" 2500 Mega Roof Sprinter (Moby)
>>>>> '90 Westfalia Subagon (SaL)
>>>>> Fulltiming since August 2008
>>>>> Nunquam Pendite Divendium
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Brett in Portland, OR
>>> "Albert" '82 VanaFox I4 Riviera
>>>
>>
>>
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