Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2017 13:05:52 -0700
Reply-To: Christophe Guilbert <cguilbert@PICASSO.UCSF.EDU>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Christophe Guilbert <cguilbert@PICASSO.UCSF.EDU>
Subject: Re: I shared "Oil Cooler Vanagon Air Cooled" with you in OneDrive
In-Reply-To: <CY1PR20MB0029BE855E1AFE58646F0EB0A0070@CY1PR20MB0029.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
Thanks Dennis for all those information. Even thought I have all the
parts and bracket available to mount the cooler in the front , I may
consider installing it above the tranny while this last one is still
removed. I am still ambivalent about it. On one hand installing the
cooler above the tranny will solve the draining problem, on the other
hand , I don't know how much heat from the exhaust and tranny will reach
the area above the tranny.
I am also considering installing it instead of the LP tank , it will be
a compromise between the front and above tranny. Since I have a
secondary battery with 60W solar panel , I am thinking to get rid of the
LP tank, run a new 12v/110v fridge and use a small indoor propane bottle
for the stove.
since I can easily access it, maybe I can make the oil cooler detachable
so I can lift it when I need to drain it.
Any thought ?
On 04/16/2017 12:13 PM, Dennis Haynes wrote:
> This size cooler and 25 feet of line round trip take almost another full court. After the initial install some time is needed for the system to completely fill and purge. The pressure gauge will read low and you will need to get the thermostat to close so that oil cooler fills. After that the oil cooler will not normally drain out during oil changes. If you really want to drain you will need to loosen a fitting. Air needs to get for the cooler element to empty. Doing normal oil changes this really isn't an issue.
>
> Oil cooler thermostats are typically bypass devices. The feed and return is open while cold but still some oil will travel through the cooler. As the oil return warms up the thermostat disc or whatever closes off the bypass to force the oil through the cooler. For cold starting the oil only has to go to the thermostat and back. You won't notice any other difference.
>
> As for oil pressure drop it is probably in the range of 2-3 psi at operating temperature. Again even for this example we are still maintaining 45-50 psi. Keep in mind this engine was a GEX rebuild ~50K miles ago and the case was serviced for the meltdown repairs. I just did new piston-cylinder set and heads. It holds 15 psi at idle. The thermal control more than compensates for pressure drop. BTW this engine is only running 0w-40 now. 15w-50 or 20w-50 would be higher pressure at idle. At 50 psi highway the relief valve is almost being used.
>
> One thing about the air cooled engine original oil cooler, It gets the most air flow when the flaps are closed. It is a very poor set up. That is why I just completely remove them and block off the tin. More air flow for the heads.
>
> Dennis
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Christophe Guilbert [mailto:cguilbert@picasso.ucsf.edu]
> Sent: Sunday, April 16, 2017 2:47 PM
> To: Dennis Haynes <d23haynes57@hotmail.com>; vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
> Subject: Re: I shared "Oil Cooler Vanagon Air Cooled" with you in OneDrive
>
> Dennis, thanks so much for all those precisions, you just gave me a benchmark to follow ! :-) Except for the copper tubing and the bypass, I have the exact same setting which trigger my next questions:
>
> knowing that I will place the cooler in the front behind the upper grill.
>
> 1) How do you change your oil ? how do you drain all the oil which may be stuck along the long oil line ? How do you deal with the thermostat not letting oil passage when the engine/oil is cold ? , how much extra oil you need to add ?
> 2) Does such a long line will affect the oil pressure, especially when starting the engine ? what about the oil pump , can it handle it ?
>
> Chris
>
>
> On 04/16/2017 11:13 AM, Dennis Haynes wrote:
>> I have installed many oil cooler systems over the years.
>> AN-8 is more than sufficient. The largest port especially in the air cooled engine maybe 9mm. This cooler set up is maintaining 180-190 on the highway with a peak of 210-220 after extended idling. The oil temp sensor is installed in the oil pressure relief plug. Yes, drilled and tapped for a 1/8-27 sensor. By the way, this Vanagon is an automatic. Highway oil pressure at temp is 45-50 psi. This engine just had the top end rebuilt after a piston and head melt down. Mahle piston-cylinder set and a new pair of AMC heads.
>> Yes the cooler is in front, mounted behind the upper grill.
>> Over the years I have found the Teflon-stainless steel lines become maintenance headaches. They get leaks. For hoses, the Aeroquip Socketless are the easiest, most reliable to install and last forever. Fun Bus has had them replaced on in 29 years and 312K miles. However they need to be properly installed. I sue copper tube near the exhaust as there is no fear of heat damage. They do not corrode and with properly installed flare fittings give no trouble. Being near the exhaust I didn't want to use any hose.
>> The thermostat is a Derale. It is amazing accurate in operation. There is a bracket mounting it to the engine. Hoses go from there to the cooler, in this case I did one hose all the way.
>>
>> For this engine a cylinder head temp gauge was also installed. Head temps of 425-450 were common. We tried to address this after the meltdown. The oil cooler got us down to 410. Not much help there. Worked with ignition timing. Found the stock setting really relied on EGR which all of them are missing now. Disconnected the vacuum advance looking for a total advance around 35 degrees instead of the 42+. Head temp now around 380 even at 70 mph. The oil cooler though is keeping the oil-case temperature at set point at any speed.
>>
>> The oil bypass adapter is typical Empi for a beetle.
>>
>>
>>
>> Dennis
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Christophe Guilbert [mailto:cguilbert@picasso.ucsf.edu]
>> Sent: Sunday, April 16, 2017 12:41 PM
>> To: Dennis Haynes <d23haynes57@HOTMAIL.COM>; vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
>> Subject: Re: I shared "Oil Cooler Vanagon Air Cooled" with you in
>> OneDrive
>>
>> I wish I add this before I bought all my cooling parts already ! ;-)
>>
>> Some stuff are not clear from the pictures .
>> Where did you mount the cooler ? , front vehicle ?
>> Why would you use copper over PTFE braid line ? , the copper hose goes straight on the top of the exhaust heat area. It seems to me that PTFE line would be better "heat" shield in that part of the engine.
>>
>> I love the fact that you don't use the sandwich plate by bypassing the original cooler . It too late for me to change the design but I may do it to my next engine rebuild. Do you know the part of the bypass device ?
>>
>> Also , it seems that people are using AN10 hose and I bought 16" of AN8 (I want to mount my cooler in the front) . Do you think AN8 is too small ?
>>
>> Thanks for any advise Dennis.
>>
>> Chris
>>
>>
>> On 04/16/2017 08:54 AM, Dennis Haynes wrote:
>>> Here is a link to some pictures for an oil cooler installation 82 Vanagon.
>>>
>>> [https://bn1302files.storage.live.com/y4p58cvhh7IZ2znHbY_Y5Hl5mMufH8VE9sa6XBDb5p4MV1jbfVJaZ8pL3x2F0cJtZx3qQSxDI9Ha0Y8qYc9Ye3Fd21zPegewogBKM0mwP3PnnigtRH-DPxSw8iueE-2relX/WP_20170326_005.jpg?psid=1&ck=3&ex=720]<https://onedrive.live.com/redir.aspx?cid=9b02084a888884a6&page=self&resid=9B02084A888884A6!216474&parId=9B02084A888884A6!216473&authkey=!AgZNbI03-fO6ehQ&Bpub=SDX.SkyDrive&Bsrc=Share&ref=thumb&type=1> Oil Cooler Vanagon Air Cooled<https://onedrive.live.com/redir.aspx?cid=9b02084a888884a6&resid=9B02084A888884A6!216473&parId=9B02084A888884A6!127&authkey=!AgZNbI03-fO6ehQ&Bpub=SDX.SkyDrive&Bsrc=Share&ref=name>
>>> There are 8 photos in this folder.
>>> You can add this folder to your own OneDrive. Learn
>>> how.<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/p/?LinkId=389986>
>>> View in
>>> OneDrive<https://onedrive.live.com/redir.aspx?cid=9b02084a888884a6&re
>>> s
>>> id=9B02084A888884A6!216473&parId=9B02084A888884A6!127&authkey=!AgZNbI
>>> 0 3-fO6ehQ&Bpub=SDX.SkyDrive&Bsrc=Share&ref=button>
>>>
>>> [https://bn1302files.storage.live.com/y4pqxG8IJGZ6DLM27MSiu0yYnOwXoPufZyKpgTzkzUAYUVptCTKOTviEHVpbqLsXpiFiq5JgJv5PDsscoCou2AV7MJ6MbYMJZfudybXuXpFe3lXwzlftjuOsjGLvSUItLDH/WP_20170326_004.jpg?psid=1&ck=3&ex=720]<https://onedrive.live.com/redir.aspx?cid=9b02084a888884a6&page=self&resid=9B02084A888884A6!216475&parId=9B02084A888884A6!216473&authkey=!AgZNbI03-fO6ehQ&Bpub=SDX.SkyDrive&Bsrc=Share&ref=thumb&type=1> [https://bn1302files.storage.live.com/y4pv82sLDlOPF4juwaPTd4BuDLOR-xwSR4Yc0GxDn0PFr9O_1ydXv8mQuI9thdldnUFN8dYVHKPDN_RCor3Zq7hIa5XzLTALrAhQNiWyMT96V0Q_8nbUQdfIjDkkb8v2SXh/WP_20170330_003.jpg?psid=1&ck=3&ex=720] <https://onedrive.live.com/redir.aspx?cid=9b02084a888884a6&page=self&resid=9B02084A888884A6!216476&parId=9B02084A888884A6!216473&authkey=!AgZNbI03-fO6ehQ&Bpub=SDX.SkyDrive&Bsrc=Share&ref=thumb&type=1> [https://bn1302files.storage.live.com/y4p42TfZozwqU8iZhRGTIEOLgRoCcGZbLF0QGrA74S4Pnxgvtt2ZVyaaCp2C8YNbAaVhMpfGvmunqX4zDQdkTtQ201Iobjc_1osnMA29gpXUW-0Lk3GYcZ5oAJ4N9Oh5BgZ/WP_20170326_003.jpg?psid=1&ck=3&ex=720] <https://onedrive.live.com/redir.aspx?cid=9b02084a888884a6&page=self&resid=9B02084A888884A6!216477&parId=9B02084A888884A6!216473&authkey=!AgZNbI03-fO6ehQ&Bpub=SDX.SkyDrive&Bsrc=Share&ref=thumb&type=1> [https://bn1302files.storage.live.com/y4pmjmLk5O9qyMegJqH3vcN1F1GdajLlY6WqP7k9X4DQXINZxxc-w2m6YIduEvmHZCm7a6s1gVcoXi94VD2AW_5bZXIMYdGW4JpNueGQCpqjVNFnJI8C6r67PSa9hqyqcgl/WP_20170326_001.jpg?psid=1&ck=3&ex=720] <https://onedrive.live.com/redir.aspx?cid=9b02084a888884a6&page=self&resid=9B02084A888884A6!216478&parId=9B02084A888884A6!216473&authkey=!AgZNbI03-fO6ehQ&Bpub=SDX.SkyDrive&Bsrc=Share&ref=thumb&type=1> [https://bn1302files.storage.live.com/y4paA2Y35gHDwhq9_JhBF4mCtOHG7se_rnJhSYIm8hS2V5cS8MEzUwxhQGb-am7crT1rQ4aj2EUig434qeBLytdU6NJ33yKifTnQJEgB21snbvq3w3qDliZJuqCAwuUb9ca/WP_20170330_004.jpg?psid=1&ck=3&ex=720] <https://onedrive.live.com/redir.aspx?cid=9b02084a888884a6&page=self&resid=9B02084A888884A6!216479&parId=9B02084A888884A6!216473&authkey=!AgZNbI03-fO6ehQ&Bpub=SDX.SkyDrive&Bsrc=Share&ref=thumb&type=1>
>>> [https://bn1302files.storage.live.com/y4pOFweKweYpYsAtC-W7ef-21KUHXlPdkslcjlmLs3xBjYz5w2O3ofIGew_2UelatsdR6jEEuelLJAWM9VFqiG9MJmOA942h0nxRtkdWzQJOUotl7V64ZubZPNaw3wamk-n/WP_20170326_002.jpg?psid=1&ck=3&ex=720]<https://onedrive.live.com/redir.aspx?cid=9b02084a888884a6&page=self&resid=9B02084A888884A6!216480&parId=9B02084A888884A6!216473&authkey=!AgZNbI03-fO6ehQ&Bpub=SDX.SkyDrive&Bsrc=Share&ref=thumb&type=1> [https://bn1302files.storage.live.com/y4p1ttFJZM5nMDd8n3uFHwHSwE9DIEpCYGpaoD0KNmWavfNt0FQkUuVHtWbB_syW5Zqo0EhvhflUrbAuvwBJY_Q_XTfuuUUYeMqWO6HgxLeB9n7YEYmRmE_IERgXRHJeKdv/WP_20170330_005.jpg?psid=1&ck=3&ex=720] <https://onedrive.live.com/redir.aspx?cid=9b02084a888884a6&page=self&resid=9B02084A888884A6!216481&parId=9B02084A888884A6!216473&authkey=!AgZNbI03-fO6ehQ&Bpub=SDX.SkyDrive&Bsrc=Share&ref=thumb&type=1>
>>>
>>> [OneDrive]
>>>
>>> Free online storage for your files. Check it
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>>
>
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