Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2017 22:57:06 -0500
Reply-To: Tom Hargrave <thargrav@HIWAAY.NET>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Tom Hargrave <thargrav@HIWAAY.NET>
Subject: Re: Bosch "premium" rebuilt starter appears to be built from
non-Bosch parts!?!
In-Reply-To: <CY1PR20MB0029B378ABAEDE4591ADCD7BA0D10@CY1PR20MB0029.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
One issue with rebuilt 'anything' today is the rebuilder will test and then only repair / replace what failed. So, in the case of a starter or alternator the with bad brushes, only the commutator is cleaned up and the brushes are replaced. Or in the case of newer (later than 70's) Bosch alternators, the commutator is cleaned up and the regulator is replaced since the brushes are part of the regulator assembly.
But I've been in the rebuild business and the issue really isn't greed, it's competition for sales. The bottom line is you can provide the greatest rebuild service in the world and if your alternator costs $10.00 more to rebuild than the next guy's service, that $10.00 will translate into a $30.00 retail price difference. His will sell and yours won't, and it really does not matter if yours are better. He will be generating cash flow and will stay in business and you won't!
But there's an easy solution to the whole rebuilt parts dilemma - shop for parts marked 100% rebuilt. And in the case of alternators and starters, prepare to pay 60% - 80% more for a 100% rebuilt part.
Thanks, Tom Hargrave
www.kegkits.com
www.stir-plate.com
www.towercooler.com
www.grow-sun.com
www.raspberryproject.com
http://goo.gl/niRzVw
-----Original Message-----
From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM] On Behalf Of Dennis Haynes
Sent: Sunday, July 2, 2017 11:56 AM
To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
Subject: Re: Bosch "premium" rebuilt starter appears to be built from non-Bosch parts!?!
Of the premium brands of "remanufactured" electrical parts I seem to have the greatest disappointments with the Bosch boxed units. Both starters and alternators. For the starters the common comeback is slow cranking or the no start, often temporarily fixed by smacking it. Often the symptoms appear in a few months and I get to eat the job and fight for a warranty replacement. This really sucks on Syncros. For alternators the comebacks are usually poor performance (low voltage) or excessive whining. For the most part now for customers not wanting to go with some type of new offering I go with the store brands such as NAPA or Autozone. I have a relationship with the local NAPA so they are my first choice. However rebuilds for the automatics are getting harder to get. So far I have had only one Autozone alternator come back due to a rear bearing failure.
Having experience with forklifts and other DC motors for many years I know that there are many reasons for DC motors not to work properly, even brand new ones. The major issues with these involve the motor brushes. Size tolerances and heat issues can cause them to stick in the holders. This the main reason for the intermittent no start until you smack it. Next is brush material. Too soft and they wear and can smear carbon around the commutator. This causes excessive current draw and low torque. To hard and the commutator wears. The space between the commutator bars has to undercut so there is a gap between each bar. When the bars wear down the gap disappears and the smooth surface again allows the brush material to become a continuous smear again.
For rebuilds who knows where some parts like the brushes are sourced and what specs are followed except for the dimensions. As for windings there is no excuse for them to fail. A good rebuild should include testing, cleaning and re-dipping both to ensure the insulation is good and preventing the windings from vibrating together and wearing through and shorting out. When a newly installed alternator whines like heck take it back out and return it. Some whine is normal but it shouldn’t sound like a siren.
I really find it disappointing to replace old-consumed parts and then find the replacements don’t last a fraction of the time. Greed! The only way this is going to change is for folks to hold suppliers accountable. Keep the paperwork, buy with warranties, and work to collect on them. This is a lot easier dealing with local suppliers when possible.
Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On Behalf Of Tom Hargrave
Sent: Saturday, July 1, 2017 12:43 AM
To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
Subject: Re: Bosch "premium" rebuilt starter appears to be built from non-Bosch parts!?!
To understand what's going on you need to understand how all volume OEM parts, and not just volume car parts are manufactured. I have no doubt that your original starter was manufactured by Bosch or one of their qualified subs, which allowed that sub to use the Bosch name. But once a part is no longer used for production, the license to build that part and often the assembly line that manufactured that part are sold to a smaller second or third tier manufacturer. The reason is simple - current manufacturing space has to be converted over to build what's supporting today's models. It's likely your starter was rebuilt by Bosch, and it's just as likely that the parts used were not manufactured by Bosch but were purchased by the rebuilder from one of these second or third tier manufacturers. The parts being built today to support starters that were manufactured in the 80's are supposed to be manufactured to the same specs as the original parts. Sometimes they are and sometimes they aren't. The problem is these manufacturers are building to a set of 'specs' and not to a strict design.
Thanks, Tom Hargrave
www.kegkits.com
www.stir-plate.com
www.towercooler.com
www.grow-sun.com
www.raspberryproject.com
http://goo.gl/niRzVw
-----Original Message-----
From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM] On Behalf Of Poppie Jagersand
Sent: Friday, June 30, 2017 7:28 PM
To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
Subject: Bosch "premium" rebuilt starter appears to be built from non-Bosch parts!?!
Having had bad experience with some aftermarket SR28X starters, I bought a "Bosch Premium" branded rebuild.
My old starters have Bosch markings stamped in the black metal motor housing. (Both the very old large type that came with the 82, 83, and the later smaller, permanent magnet gear reduction starters) The rebuild I just bought has no Bosch markings. What have others found on their rebuilt starters?
Do rebuilders generally reject non-Bosch parts, or reuse any cores they get?
I would mostly concerned with the copper windings in the rotor of the PM motor. That's what has been bad on the aftermarket starters I tried.
Martin (and 82 Westy 1.9TD in Canada, 85 Gas in Europe)
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